I don’t advocate for the tearing down of statues or destruction of property.
I’m simply commenting on it.
I have a teenage daughter that wanted to participate in some of these protests.
I wasn’t going to drive her to any of them.
And I didn’t want her mingling with crowds at the risk of spreading COVID.
So I’m not involved in any of this but do think we are watching a bit of history and a revolution that I wasn’t around for in the sixties.
Dan Kahneman wrote:
1100 wrote:
I do not qualify as one who thinks such acts are "awful"; although "awful" is quite the subjective term so who knows?
Nonetheless I will comment on your question. It does not seem to me that the reason behind not liking these acts is at all binary. Perhaps you did not mean to imply that it is in your post - difficult for me to discern.
At any rate, beyond 1) "the act itself of destroying property (seeing it similar to some other property with no actual practical use)" and 2) "the history behind the statues being damaged" there are far more reasonably likely reasons.
For instance, it has already been pointed out that allowing a small number of individuals to determine which statues should stay and which should go is problematic in a democratic society. Giving Trump an edge in the election (law and order and all that) is another reason that people might think it is "awful". I am sure that one could point out many others if one was so inclined.
Here is where I part with many other liberals who think well tearing down these statues are for a good cause so they really can't fault the people doing it.
I feel as you explained in your last paragraph. Yesterday, on the 4th, I drove by a house with a huge confederate flag and NO USA flag (and I live in the north). I hated the idea of that person flying the traitor flag where war was fought to maintain the idea of owning people. But their is no way I should march over to his property and tear down that flag. I wouldn't do it if the town owned that flag either,
Let me put it this way. Suppose a town had a statue of an elected official who voted prochoice. Would a conservative group have the right to come by and tear that statue down? Of course not.
So people rioting or tearing down statues that they don't like is lawlessness and really anarchy and I do think it is a big deal.
It also just detracts from the issue and allows attention to be drawn to lawlessness instead of the real issue. Fortunately, Trump is so bad it probably won't make that big of deal. But Trump will tie lawlessness to democrats.
I’m not arguing legality, but there is a big difference between private and public property.
L L wrote:
I’m not asking you to support tearing down statues.
I’m saying the building comparison is bad.
It takes time to heed calls to change things.
After decades of people being unhappy in Virginia with confederate statues and names of schools it took a public reaction to a horrible president and his divisiveness.
Now Richmond has removed the statue of Robert E Lee and Stonewall Jackson High School has now been renamed Unity Reed High School.
Unity stands for togetherness and Reed was a well liked black security guard who worked at the school.
This was a reaction to the Charlottesville debacle and the string of horrible killings of black people up to George Floyd and the nationwide protests.
Petitions alone didn’t make change. It was a visual and visceral reaction of many angry yet united people that lead to localities implementing these changes.
And a little civil disobedience.
They are even changing the name of the Redskins because of corporate and sponsor pressure that has come from this.
I have been pretty clear that this will result in things that I want. I only will be happy about it because I am a flawed person. Laws must still be obeyed except under the most egregious circumstances. These statues and the stupid Confederate Battle Flag are oppressive hateful symbols, but I can't get behind supporting tearing down those statues even if it leads to something I want.
Fat hurts wrote:
Dan Kahneman wrote:
I don't accept your premise. I would prefer not having a group of people decide for the population what they feel is appropriate or not. That's why we have elections.
There can be a role for civil disobedience is cases of blatant evil that needs to be stopped. This doesn't meet that criterion. The population can debate which statues are appropriate or not. Some might say any person who owned slaves should have their statue removed. Others might say if the reason they are famous is due to their role in fighting for slavery then their statue should be removed.
I don't want a group of law breaking people to make the decision for the rest of us.
The image of law breakers, combined with liberal tolerance of it, works to trump's advantage. And who wants that?
So institutional racism is not a blatant evil that needs to be stopped?
The toppling of statues is not just about the statues themselves. It is an act of civil disobedience that draws attention to the larger issues. People are bravely risking a lot of jail time to tear down the statues and make the larger point around BLM.
As I said, your point of view is perfectly valid. But we must recognize that the democratic process doesn't always work. Sometimes, it takes more than voter registration drives to change public opinion and affect change.
You are obviously a good guy and many of those illegally taking down statues might think they are doing good. I guess I am more in the Martin Luther King school of thought. Aggression, vandalism and violence don't bring us closer to racial fairness and harmony.
If anything that type of behavior adds to anger, hate and division. Trump, the master conman, senses that and uses that behavior to reinforce his message of culture war.
No good comes out of a group, breaking laws and defying police. It certainly does nothing to reduce racism. It Actually may increase it. It might satisfy angry people frustrated with things, but it's overall effective is destructive.
Isn’t crying about racism a little out of date? I always thought the white man died to free slaves long before any of us were around and the Jim Crowe laws the Dems loved got taken out decades ago. Must be something else to discuss?
Noyankee wrote:
Isn’t crying about racism a little out of date? I always thought the white man died to free slaves long before any of us were around and the Jim Crowe laws the Dems loved got taken out decades ago. Must be something else to discuss?
A little out of date? Are you a racist? I would have to guess yes. When we have a ton of statues in this country of Robert E. Lee and other members of the confederacy and the inane Confederate Flag and black people have been killed by police and crazy white people just for being black. We have a huge racist problem in this country fueled by our idiot President and his stupid followers. You have a serious problem. Learn something today.
L L wrote:
I don’t advocate for the tearing down of statues or destruction of property.
I’m simply commenting on it.
I have a teenage daughter that wanted to participate in some of these protests.
I wasn’t going to drive her to any of them.
And I didn’t want her mingling with crowds at the risk of spreading COVID.
So I’m not involved in any of this but do think we are watching a bit of history and a revolution that I wasn’t around for in the sixties.
Ok. I'm not quite sure what we are discussing then. Looks like we don't disagree. Yes, we are watching history.
“Noyankee” - a trump fan boy called no yankee, you couldn’t make it up.
Trump stop lying to the American citizens.
Smorbun wrote:
Noyankee wrote:
Isn’t crying about racism a little out of date? I always thought the white man died to free slaves long before any of us were around and the Jim Crowe laws the Dems loved got taken out decades ago. Must be something else to discuss?
A little out of date? Are you a racist? I would have to guess yes. When we have a ton of statues in this country of Robert E. Lee and other members of the confederacy and the inane Confederate Flag and black people have been killed by police and crazy white people just for being black. We have a huge racist problem in this country fueled by our idiot President and his stupid followers. You have a serious problem. Learn something today.
Look at this way, his username is no yankee. A confederate fan boy who idolizes a New York con man.
Flagpole wrote:
Fat hurts wrote:
I know you said "almost" and I know this is probably a tongue-in-cheek remark. But I do need to set the record straight here. As someone who has spent his whole life around evangelical Christians let me say that I have never seen or heard of any of them who ever come close to worship of statues.
They may now have a strong point of view on whether they should be torn down or not, but until this controversy, the subject of statues never came up. They weren't even discussed, much less worshiped.
I did not mean it tongue-in-cheek. I DID use the word "almost" on purpose because that's exactly how I see it...they ALMOST do worship some of those statues. Statues and flags. Just a step down from Idol worship in my view. Stone Mountain carving in Georgia is almost a religious pilgrimage for some people. The Confederate Battle Flag, statues of Robert E. Lee...some people are out of their minds with regard to such images. And yes, it is almost always Evangelical Christians who feel that way about those statues and flags, most of them from the South. I know several who do. I went to high school in a very conservative area of Ohio (I really had no idea how conservative it was until later), and many of the people I went to high school with who were not religious at all then are now Bible thumping Evangelical Christian Trump supporters, and they have gone nuts over the removal of statues and flags.
Ha! I just looked for this AFTER writing the above, and lo and behold, I am not the only one with this opinion.
https://go.gale.com/ps/anonymous?id=GALE%7CA450904084&sid=googleScholar&v=2.1&it=r&linkaccess=abs&issn=0038366X&p=AONE&sw=wHere's a snippet - "Confederate symbols like the battle flag and heroic figures like Robert E. Lee took on religious overtones that continue to exist today among traditional white southerners."
Those religious overtones reach up to northern Ohio too...bunch of nutso right-wing religious crazies up there in Lucas and Wood counties.
You are just dead wrong. You are looking from the outside and projecting these opinions onto them.
I live within an hour's drive of Stone Mountain. Everyone around here goes there as it's a fun place to visit for all kinds of recreation (including road races around the mountain). They also have museums and antebellum buildings where you can learn a lot of history.
I have lived in the area for over 30 years and I've never heard of anyone who went there as a pilgrimage or who had any reverence at all for the carving in the side of the mountain.
Anyone who thinks that evangelicals are even close to worshiping literal idols knows nothing about evangelicals. I am immersed in their religion and culture. They have always been some of my closest friends and relatives.
And I could go on and on with my criticism of evangelicals. They are a lot of things, but idol worshipers they are not. You simply have no idea what you are talking about.
Dan Kahneman wrote:
I guess I am more in the Martin Luther King school of thought. Aggression, vandalism and violence don't bring us closer to racial fairness and harmony.
No good comes out of a group, breaking laws and defying police. It certainly does nothing to reduce racism. It Actually may increase it. It might satisfy angry people frustrated with things, but it's overall effective is destructive.
I haven't come out to say you are actually wrong on this. It's a delicate balance.
You mentioned Martin Luther King and then you said that no good comes from a group breaking laws and defying police. But that's exactly what Martin Luther King and his group did. They broke laws. They allowed themselves to be jailed. They defied police. And they changed the world.
From your comments, I gather that it's not so much the law-breaking that you are against. It's the vandalism. In activist circles, there has always been a debate about how far to push and some do draw the line at vandalism. Others see destruction of property as OK if it helps to galvanize public opinion.
But if you are going to go the vandalism route, you need to be careful. While destruction of a Robert E. Lee statue might sway the public in your direction, the destruction of a George Washington statue might have the opposite effect.
Those in the MLK tradition always at least draw the line at violence against other people. They believe that kind of violence tends to backfire, so it's counter-productive.
Flagpole wrote:
L L wrote:
I’m not asking you to support tearing down statues.
but I can't get behind supporting tearing down those statues even if it leads to something I want.
It was literally the first thing I wrote in that post.
What I am asking is to see there are different ways to do things and that we don't all approach things the same way.
And unfortunately, people react better to dramatic images than calm discussion.
That's how America was born - with The American Revolution.
That's how slavery was finally ended - with a violent Civil War.
And people went through hell in the sixties to share schools, bathrooms and water fountains.
This statues thing is nothing compared to the blood letting of the past.
I want to comment about my Trump supporter friends on Facebook.
I have been seeing some serious rants and meltdowns lately.
They know their leader is going down and they are kicking and screaming.
L L wrote:
I want to comment about my Trump supporter friends on Facebook.
I have been seeing some serious rants and meltdowns lately.
They know their leader is going down and they are kicking and screaming.
Do tell.
Can you gauge their feelings on whether they will continue to support him if he comes up with a scheme to declare emergency powers that allow him to stay in office?
Fat hurts wrote:
Flagpole wrote:
I did not mean it tongue-in-cheek. I DID use the word "almost" on purpose because that's exactly how I see it...they ALMOST do worship some of those statues. Statues and flags. Just a step down from Idol worship in my view. Stone Mountain carving in Georgia is almost a religious pilgrimage for some people. The Confederate Battle Flag, statues of Robert E. Lee...some people are out of their minds with regard to such images. And yes, it is almost always Evangelical Christians who feel that way about those statues and flags, most of them from the South. I know several who do. I went to high school in a very conservative area of Ohio (I really had no idea how conservative it was until later), and many of the people I went to high school with who were not religious at all then are now Bible thumping Evangelical Christian Trump supporters, and they have gone nuts over the removal of statues and flags.
Ha! I just looked for this AFTER writing the above, and lo and behold, I am not the only one with this opinion.
https://go.gale.com/ps/anonymous?id=GALE%7CA450904084&sid=googleScholar&v=2.1&it=r&linkaccess=abs&issn=0038366X&p=AONE&sw=wHere's a snippet - "Confederate symbols like the battle flag and heroic figures like Robert E. Lee took on religious overtones that continue to exist today among traditional white southerners."
Those religious overtones reach up to northern Ohio too...bunch of nutso right-wing religious crazies up there in Lucas and Wood counties.
You are just dead wrong. You are looking from the outside and projecting these opinions onto them.
I live within an hour's drive of Stone Mountain. Everyone around here goes there as it's a fun place to visit for all kinds of recreation (including road races around the mountain). They also have museums and antebellum buildings where you can learn a lot of history.
I have lived in the area for over 30 years and I've never heard of anyone who went there as a pilgrimage or who had any reverence at all for the carving in the side of the mountain.
Anyone who thinks that evangelicals are even close to worshiping literal idols knows nothing about evangelicals. I am immersed in their religion and culture. They have always been some of my closest friends and relatives.
And I could go on and on with my criticism of evangelicals. They are a lot of things, but idol worshipers they are not. You simply have no idea what you are talking about.
Fat Hurts,
You get so defensive whenever Evangelicals are mentioned, and then you present an argument against what isn't what I said. I did not say ALL Evangelicals do this or even that most or a large percentage do. I said that the majority of the ones who do this ARE Evangelicals, and that is correct. I also said "almost" which you conveniently left out in this last post of yours. As I showed you, I am not the only one with this correct observation. There's a guy in my own neighborhood who is a huge NASCAR fan, and he is outraged that the Confederate Battle Flag is no longer allowed at NASCAR events as he "almost" worships that flag. He has one hanging in his garage that is easily seen when it is open. And, oh yeah, he's an Evangelical Christian. He is not someone I would normally care to know well, but his son was in the same class with my son, they were in Cub Scouts together (where they met at his house), etc. so we know each other pretty well. I think I'm pretty open minded in saying "almost" here. Many people believe there is no "almost" about it.
I like to think of myself as a left leaning centrist. I have no issue with these statues or Army bases. Let them stand as a reminder of the past.
....or put it up for a vote. Let the people of those states decide.
Alan
L L wrote:
Flagpole wrote:
but I can't get behind supporting tearing down those statues even if it leads to something I want.
It was literally the first thing I wrote in that post.
What I am asking is to see there are different ways to do things and that we don't all approach things the same way.
And unfortunately, people react better to dramatic images than calm discussion.
That's how America was born - with The American Revolution.
That's how slavery was finally ended - with a violent Civil War.
And people went through hell in the sixties to share schools, bathrooms and water fountains.
This statues thing is nothing compared to the blood letting of the past.
I want to comment about my Trump supporter friends on Facebook.
I have been seeing some serious rants and meltdowns lately.
They know their leader is going down and they are kicking and screaming.
Not quite sure why you are keeping this up with me. None of what you said there is news to me. Property destruction is still wrong even if it doesn't compare to bloodletting. I understand fully (and have already noted this) that actions like this do sometimes hasten good deeds by governments, and I agree that the have here. I am FOR the end result, but that is only because I am a flawed person.
Runningart2004 wrote:
I like to think of myself as a left leaning centrist. I have no issue with these statues or Army bases. Let them stand as a reminder of the past.
....or put it up for a vote. Let the people of those states decide.
Alan
1) Statues are not simply "a reminder of the past". They are a glorification of that past and bestow honor upon those depicted.
2) There is something to be said for "put it up for a vote. Let the people of those states decide." However, the case is not so cut and dried. If the majority of a state are KKK members, for instance, it might not be OK for them to simply vote to erect statues in honor of the KKK Grand Wizard. This is roughly what the current statues depicting Confederate "heroes" represent.
Flagpole wrote:
L L wrote:
It was literally the first thing I wrote in that post.
What I am asking is to see there are different ways to do things and that we don't all approach things the same way.
And unfortunately, people react better to dramatic images than calm discussion.
That's how America was born - with The American Revolution.
That's how slavery was finally ended - with a violent Civil War.
And people went through hell in the sixties to share schools, bathrooms and water fountains.
This statues thing is nothing compared to the blood letting of the past.
I want to comment about my Trump supporter friends on Facebook.
I have been seeing some serious rants and meltdowns lately.
They know their leader is going down and they are kicking and screaming.
Not quite sure why you are keeping this up with me. None of what you said there is news to me. Property destruction is still wrong even if it doesn't compare to bloodletting. I understand fully (and have already noted this) that actions like this do sometimes hasten good deeds by governments, and I agree that the have here. I am FOR the end result, but that is only because I am a flawed person.
Under what circumstances would you consider property destruction to NOT be wrong? Can you give a (not too extreme) historical example of when property destruction WAS wrong and one where it WAS NOT wrong? This may help in understanding where you draw the line.
I ask because I find your posts to generally be well thought out, so I am curious as to how you might delineate this bifurcation.
Flagpole wrote:
You get so defensive whenever Evangelicals are mentioned, and then you present an argument against what isn't what I said. I did not say ALL Evangelicals do this or even that most or a large percentage do. I said that the majority of the ones who do this ARE Evangelicals, and that is correct. . . .
A high percentage of southern African Americans are Evangelicals and it's probably save to say generally despise the Confederate battle flag and everything it stands for. This suggests that maybe Evangelicalism by itself isn't a useful categorical distinction in this context.
If you want to continue the line of argument, I'd suggest also that stating the flag is a "strong part of some Evangelical sub-group's cultural identity" is much less loaded and more accurate than is the term "worships".
Runningart2004 wrote:
I like to think of myself as a left leaning centrist. I have no issue with these statues or Army bases. Let them stand as a reminder of the past.
....or put it up for a vote. Let the people of those states decide.
Alan
Socially, I am an Uber leftist, and I DO have issues with these statues, and I DO believe it is time for those bases to be renamed, but I agree with you that either the people or the governing bodies should decide what happens. We can't allow lawlessness just because someone doesn't like something, EVEN IF we believe we are right and just. There have been anti-abortionists who have burned down abortion clinics and murdered doctors because they believed they were right and just. Of course murder is worse than tearing down statues, but where do we draw the line? Murder? Kidnapping? Assault? Monetary value of the property being destroyed?