We've closed this thread to new posts. Please discuss this topic in a new thread given the fact she just won the race outright in 2023. Does that mean that the 2022 cheating allegations definitely have no merit?
Her own community doesn’t believe to she fairly completed Badwater cause of her cheating ways.
To paraphrase Groucho Marx, I wouldn't want to be a member of a club that bitches about you behind your back but not a single member of whom will stand up and say anything publicly. Beyond pathetic.
Well then you're obviously not a member of the "club" and if you were you'd know why nobody will stand up and say anything publicly. The Badwater family is actually very supportive of each other.
To paraphrase Groucho Marx, I wouldn't want to be a member of a club that bitches about you behind your back but not a single member of whom will stand up and say anything publicly. Beyond pathetic.
Well then you're obviously not a member of the "club" and if you were you'd know why nobody will stand up and say anything publicly. The Badwater family is actually very supportive of each other.
The only reason a "club" of Badwater participants wold be reluctanct to call out a cheater would be if they all cheat every year and nobody wants to admit it.
To paraphrase Groucho Marx, I wouldn't want to be a member of a club that bitches about you behind your back but not a single member of whom will stand up and say anything publicly. Beyond pathetic.
Well then you're obviously not a member of the "club" and if you were you'd know why nobody will stand up and say anything publicly. The Badwater family is actually very supportive of each other.
That's fine. If you and Costman a hermetically sealed club of less than a thousand wealthy, middle aged athletes trotting round the desert once a year and patting each other on the back, that's fine. On the other hand if you want to bill Badwater as a serious athletic event, if you want Harvey Lewis' and all your other heros' performances to have real currency and be respected by athletes outside your little club, then you need to be open to outside challenges and if you don't believe the performances those challenges lead to then you need to stand up and say why, with your name attached. With every post on this interminable thread you are doing real damage to the reputation of Badwater, Harvey Lewis and every other insider you claim to speak for. I don't get it.
From what I read at MI, the reports were things like 'she should have been visible at multiple times when she wasn't'. MI gathered information for where that was on the course, and then using Strava's fly-by capability, figured out because of curves in the road or elevation changes they wouldn't have been able to see her based on where they each were at that time.
Those 'reports' (IMHO) from well known highly accomplished runners is what set of the wild goose chase, looking at splits, pictures, etc. Now with the passage of time, we have to assume (because of nothing more specific and nothing more public) that the heart of these reports is basically a disbelief that she couldn't have possibly done what she did. But again, without any proof or more public details, we have to at this point then assume its just disbelief.
I was all-in on the train that this could be a cheater. But the more I looked into the splits, GPS data, pictures along the course, and Ashley's race resume, the more I was convinced it was indeed possible. Especially if those supposed reports fell apart into nothing.
Looking at the splits and videos, Ashley was within 0-2 miles of Harvey and Lee for 15 hours. 15 hours! At Stovepipe Wells for example (mile 42) Ashley is on video leaving the checkpoint within 5 seconds of Harvey arriving. She arrived at Panamint Springs (mile 72) a mere 4 minutes ahead of Lee. They quite literally watched her slowly run away from them over the course of the day.
She's just not as fast at him at 100+ and she's not going to wear down a guy who set the record at Big Dog's Backyard who's having a good run.
harvey is a great runner. But if you look at his graded results at Ultrasignup (take that with whatever nugget of salt you like), his performance at Badwater ranks quite significantly behind every other race he did this year (including 149 miles just a month earlier, at FANS).
Just because you're great doesn't mean you're an automaton; perhaps Harvey didn't have the gas when needed.
No, just a jokey note. It's true (my age rank is actually 100%) but that's way more telling of the fact that the UltraSignup ranks are blunt metrics to the point of being useless. Turn up to one 10 person ultra, win at a canter and you have a 100% rank for as long as you want. My record is only slightly more impressive than that.
Debbie Martin-Consani: "It would be so easy to cheat in that race." But she doesn't think anyone did. "You're never going to be able to find five people that would think that was a good idea." Podcast here.
Debbie Martin-Consani: "It would be so easy to cheat in that race." But she doesn't think anyone did. "You're never going to be able to find five people that would think that was a good idea." Podcast here.
I think she underestimates the thirst of influencers and their spouses.
Think of how many more cases of Plexus Slim they can sell to their fat followers now.
Debbie Martin-Consani: "It would be so easy to cheat in that race." But she doesn't think anyone did. "You're never going to be able to find five people that would think that was a good idea." Podcast here.
I think she underestimates the thirst of influencers and their spouses.
Think of how many more cases of Plexus Slim they can sell to their fat followers now.
Re-reading Harvey's posts after the race, you have to think he saw something really blatant and undeniable to use words like "steal" and to talk about "shortcuts," "facades," "fame," "money," etc. I've read or listened to a lot of interviews with him over the past few years and he strikes me as an incredibly kind and humble person who doesn't get pissed off easily, to say the least. And in Debbie's interview above, she's really adamant about how easy it would be to cheat, while also being clear that she doesn't think Ashley did.
Sorry to continue to be that guy, but I looked at the early, nighttime portions of the data, and compared it to other runners. There is a lot of right-side running by Ashley during the night portions, and none by others in the same areas. I compared to many Fenix 6 wearers, and everyone's hugging the left side of the road. If Harvey and others talked about not being able to see her when they should have, it could have been early on, in the dark before they reached Stovepipe. This is a pretty insane notion, considering that, according to her data, she was within 1-2 minutes of Harvey that whole time (Lee was 4-16 minutes ahead), and also that pacers were not allowed until Stovepipe (42.2 mile mark). But there's more right-side running later on too, after Stovepipe and after Panamint. And as previously harped on by me, on Portal Road. To say nothing of the HR data, which shows staggering low max HRs on places like hills or rolling hills where surely you'd expect, going the pace that she was, something above 114.
Here's the thing: data is easy to change. I found two free tools that lets you edit every lap of a .FIT file and all the corresponding pace, cadence and HR data. But the path itself would be hard, if not impossible, to change. If her lap data was changed, MI examining Flybys is not going to tell you much, and his point that "she was farther ahead than previously thought" would be moot. So, once again, it all comes down to what the other runners saw.
I think she underestimates the thirst of influencers and their spouses.
Think of how many more cases of Plexus Slim they can sell to their fat followers now.
Re-reading Harvey's posts after the race, you have to think he saw something really blatant and undeniable to use words like "steal" and to talk about "shortcuts," "facades," "fame," "money," etc. I've read or listened to a lot of interviews with him over the past few years and he strikes me as an incredibly kind and humble person who doesn't get pissed off easily, to say the least. And in Debbie's interview above, she's really adamant about how easy it would be to cheat, while also being clear that she doesn't think Ashley did.
Sorry to continue to be that guy, but I looked at the early, nighttime portions of the data, and compared it to other runners. There is a lot of right-side running by Ashley during the night portions, and none by others in the same areas. I compared to many Fenix 6 wearers, and everyone's hugging the left side of the road. If Harvey and others talked about not being able to see her when they should have, it could have been early on, in the dark before they reached Stovepipe. This is a pretty insane notion, considering that, according to her data, she was within 1-2 minutes of Harvey that whole time (Lee was 4-16 minutes ahead), and also that pacers were not allowed until Stovepipe (42.2 mile mark). But there's more right-side running later on too, after Stovepipe and after Panamint. And as previously harped on by me, on Portal Road. To say nothing of the HR data, which shows staggering low max HRs on places like hills or rolling hills where surely you'd expect, going the pace that she was, something above 114.
Here's the thing: data is easy to change. I found two free tools that lets you edit every lap of a .FIT file and all the corresponding pace, cadence and HR data. But the path itself would be hard, if not impossible, to change. If her lap data was changed, MI examining Flybys is not going to tell you much, and his point that "she was farther ahead than previously thought" would be moot. So, once again, it all comes down to what the other runners saw.
Throughout the course, Ashley and her crew would have passed approximately 50 runners and their crews. This includes the runner from this podcast who implied that Ashley flew by her. Race officials would have seen her numerous times. Surely someone other than Harvey must have seen something if there was cheating. And if Harvey did see something obvious, it doesn’t appear that he shared it with MI. If no one provides any evidence, then we are just left with what appears to be a very good sub 30-hour run.
I mean, I wouldn't classify Harvey or guys like AJW as "runners".. they definitely can't keep up with a runner like Ashley in any race requiring speed. Those ultra guys are diesel engines just puttering along for a very long time at very slow speeds.
Throughout the course, Ashley and her crew would have passed approximately 50 runners and their crews. This includes the runner from this podcast who implied that Ashley flew by her. Race officials would have seen her numerous times. Surely someone other than Harvey must have seen something if there was cheating. And if Harvey did see something obvious, it doesn’t appear that he shared it with MI. If no one provides any evidence, then we are just left with what appears to be a very good sub 30-hour run.
Well, the reality is that the top five were set by mile 17. They had already passed everyone from the two earlier waves by that first checkpoint. By the second checkpoint at mile 42, the 6th runner was 11 minutes behind Harvey, and the gap would keep widening from there. It's after mile 17 (Furnace Creek) that, imo, things start to look funky with the data.
Well, the reality is that the top five were set by mile 17. They had already passed everyone from the two earlier waves by that first checkpoint. By the second checkpoint at mile 42, the 6th runner was 11 minutes behind Harvey, and the gap would keep widening from there. It's after mile 17 (Furnace Creek) that, imo, things start to look funky with the data.
There were quite a few runners that Ashley didn’t pass until near and after the 42 mile checkpoint.
Well, the reality is that the top five were set by mile 17. They had already passed everyone from the two earlier waves by that first checkpoint. By the second checkpoint at mile 42, the 6th runner was 11 minutes behind Harvey, and the gap would keep widening from there. It's after mile 17 (Furnace Creek) that, imo, things start to look funky with the data.
There were quite a few runners that Ashley didn’t pass until near and after the 42 mile checkpoint.
Well, the reality is that the top five were set by mile 17. They had already passed everyone from the two earlier waves by that first checkpoint. By the second checkpoint at mile 42, the 6th runner was 11 minutes behind Harvey, and the gap would keep widening from there. It's after mile 17 (Furnace Creek) that, imo, things start to look funky with the data.
There were quite a few runners that Ashley didn’t pass until near and after the 42 mile checkpoint.
Oh my bad! You're right. Those are obviously segment times. But in the midst of musical chairs of quite a few crew cars and runners, and in the dark, I think it would still be easy to skip the line. But I wouldn't say that if the data didn't look weird.
That’s the hours running, not the arrival time. You can calculate the arrival time in a spreadsheet or click on a person’s name and it will show the actual arrival times for each checkpoint.
There were quite a few runners that Ashley didn’t pass until near and after the 42 mile checkpoint.
Oh my bad! You're right. Those are obviously segment times. But in the midst of musical chairs of quite a few crew cars and runners, and in the dark, I think it would still be easy to skip the line. But I wouldn't say that if the data didn't look weird.
I would agree that it’s always a possibility, especially if a person fabricates most of the gpx file.
There is another allegation of course-cutting, at the Red Mountain 55K in 2019. It seems that this was never brought to the RD's attention. The screenshot is from a post on the MI FB group, and I don't believe this race has been brought up on here, but correct me if I'm wrong. It was news to me.
I'm no longer entertaining the remote possibility that this Badwater CR was legitimate. There are just too many of these types of things popping up with her.
Help us build the best running shoe review site for a chance to win a LetsRun t-shirt.Help us build the best running shoe review site for a chance to win one of 10 LetsRun t-shirts.