Mr. Renato Canova: Could You Please Answer a Question About Effective Ways to Improve the Lactate Threshold?

Perhaps Pietro Roncalli and Racer1 are also the same person.

I am Irish.

The name Pietro Roncalli sounds pretty Italian, no?

You be the judge.

No examples, Antonio?

Racer 1

My case is diffrent. Contrary to what you say ther are few foreigner runners that did visit me in my country - they know me, my family, my friends, a few runers that i coach, they take photos with me, with some top portuguese class runners etc. etc. Ther are still a portuguese runner - that did post in LetsRunCom and sayng that he admires my posts but did knew me yet and 15 days later we did lunch togheter.

Some of the runners that don´t see me yet in my presence, they have other guys that did new me. In Lisbon, if you go to certain places as the Universtitary Stadium - just ask for Cabral, they will tell you who i am and we will meet one each other. Besides i use a real e-mail and if you have interest you can send me a personal e.mail and i will show some my photos that you will know what i am. But if you doubt, and you aks for i will send you my portuguese ID card. If eventually you come to Portugal you also can infeirme me and we will meet each other. I will pay you a lunch. So ther´s no doubt what i am if you want to investigate, that´s easy.

Now who is Hadd ? Anyone saw him alive ? Anyone saw a his own photo? Why he stop to post in here as Hadd ? Don´t you realise that Weldom or no matter who that tells you that Hadd did exist they are simply going on with that fiction ?

As you imagine, i have no present in my mind by memory the Kellogg or/and Hadd articles and also in their posts, but when i did read that i did take lots of similarities in the style, in "their" training concepts, and also in their author quotes. Some references about net articles as Billat -the french female physilogist (this i remember now)

and more and more are equal.

A great portuguese poet - eventually the best all the time - named Fernando Pessoa - i advise you to read - he did crete several "pseudonimous" that means he did buld some person profile - different one from each other - with differnt occupations - lived in different areas, diffreent ages and so - and he did write entire books - signing with that nick names. The texts were so different that only after that he did reveal that Ricardo Reis, Alvaro de Campos (2 of his pseudonimous) that´s when the literary critic did realise that were all done by the same man - Fernando Pessoa. This reminds me Kellogg and Hadd. Anyhow Kellogg creating Hadd did a intersting work, thata ables him to express thir training ideas in a different direction and with different purposes than the Kelogg classic training, and that fictional creation with kellogg a very +olite coach and Hadd a very unpolite guy - well done !.

Hi Antonio - I too used to come on the post-Hadd threads and politely suggest that his physical existence was a hoax. Got slammed plenty good for it.

Antonio, I do not doubt you are indeed a coach in Portugal. I am sure if I went I could find you there.

The point is, most posters have NOT been "seen" by any other poster. That does not prove that they do not exist. I have never met anyone else on this board in person, but I know they are still real people.

As for JK impersonating Hadd and Weldon "playing along" that is ridiculous. What reason is there to play some game pretending to post other different training? That is a waste of time, not real. I have spoken with both by e-mail. They are two different people and I am sure of it.

JK is a big fan of progressive runs, where you start easily and gradually build to slightly below your LT, then spend the last 2-3 minutes over LT without tying up.

In his monster thread, Hadd explained that these runs are overrated. You need gradually build up, over a period of months (not minutes!), to the point where your aerobic threshold is strong enough to benefit from these runs.

This seems like a pretty big inconsistency for JK and Hadd to be the same person. The whole “Rome is south of Texas” seems like an unlikely conspiracy theory to me. How about the simplest explanation: Hadd likes his privacy.

Benjamin Franklin used a number of different pseudonyms in his "Poor Richard's Almanac".

Franklin often wrote letters to the editor, of his own magazine, then would respond with other letters by someone else, which was another of his pseudonyms.

These editorials would go on and one, with one attacking the other and making various points, to which the other would respond, often vehemently.

These letters generated great interest in his "Poor Richard's Almanac" and sales were good.

I tend to not do this myself, as my messages, for some unknown reason, appear to generate more than enough interest on their own.

dunes runner,

"You are penny wise and pound foolish."

-Ben Franklin

Racer1,I don't necessarily think they are the same person, but......I will say that the "evidence" you offer that they definitely are not the same person is a bit flimsy, OR....you are not revealing all you know. I will show you what I mean:

Um, what does that prove??? Maybe JK wanted to keep his Hadd alter-ego a secret. Maybe the told the brojo's to cover for him. It is quite possible. He might have his reasons for wanting to remain anonymous on those particular posts.

How do YOU know that??? Are you a moderator on this site? Again, if the brojo's are the source for this info, see my above reasoning.

It is really quite easy to intentionally write in another style. I think if one wanted to fool people, they could do it quite easily.

But having said all that, I don't necessarily think they are the same person. But what you have offered, does not prove much.....or.....as I already said, you are not revealing all that you know (like maybe that you actually have access to looking at the people's IP addresses who hit this site).

Anyway, that's my 2 cents on this controversey. Wouldn't Renato know a well-respected American coaching in Italy, like this John Hadd??? Has Renato ever heard of this guy?

mitch

"Fools call wise men fools. A wise man never calls any man a fool."

- Thomas Edison

Sir Lancelot--

You make some good points, but Wejo has many times mentioned every pseudonym JK has used.

He has posted under:

JK

TG&P Oz

Professor Utonium

Evan Conover

stop the pigeon

There was 2 others I cannot remember at the moment but would recognize if I saw them. It is very easy to recognize a pseudonym, even if the person tried to hide it. Kevin Beck recently posts under "3rd Person Panache." It is mostly different from his past posts but still, easily recognizable.

So Wejo has in fact told us about the pseudonyms, and Hadd was one of them. Unless John Kellogg made some effort to leave Texas to post under the name "Hadd" there is no correlation.

This board is not Poor Richard's Almanac, and the conspiracy theories are indeed getting ridiculous.

dunes,

"The only true wisdom is in knowing you know nothing."

- Soctrates

... and there is no wisdom is spelling 'Socrates' wrong, by the way.

I wonder if Renato could get Songkok or Shaheen on here for a live chat room. That would be pretty cool to ask those guys questions.

Renato, any interest in this?

Renato, I have not heard you say much about preparation for 1500m and the mile.

What about training for the mile for non-elites (like high schoolers)?

Antonio, how would you prepare a high school miler, being that you coach Rui Silva, the bronze medalist?

Racer1 wrote:

No examples, Antonio?

FROM THE KELLOG ARTICLE “MAXIMIZE OXIGEN UPTAKE “

<<…Way back in the late 1960s a professor called John Holloszy got some rats to run on a treadmill for various lengths of time up to 2hrs per day at around 50-75% of the rats' VO2max (easy running, therefore). After 12 weeks, he found that the rats had increased the mitochondria (vital for aerobic energy production) in their running muscles (compared to control rats that did no training). This was a seminal piece of work, because it explained why runners get better with training.

The next question was logical. How long should people run for to optimally cause this effect?

Back to Holloszy and his fellow researchers who formed 4 groups of rats to train: one group running 10mins/day, a second running 30mins/day, a third running 60mins and a fourth running 2hrs/day. All at the same easy 50-60% VO2max, and for 5 days/week for 13 weeks.

Perhaps logically, the 2hr-group had the greatest increase in mitochondria at the end of the training period.

In a tough endurance test at the end of the training, the 10-min rats managed 22 mins, the 30-min group 41 mins, the 60-min rats could run hard for 50 mins and the 2hr-rats kept going for 111 mins. It was now apparent that time to exhaustion (all rats running the same pace) was directly related to mitochondria development (which itself was directly related to time spent training).

But what about intensity? Were mitochondria only created while running long and slow?

In 1982, a guy called Gary Dudley decided to explore this question. He had several groups of rats training five days/week (but only for 8 weeks). Like Holloszy, he also used a range of different training durations, from 5-90 mins per day. However UNLIKE Holloszy (whose rats all trained at the same pace) he also used a range of training intensities. Dudley's rats trained at either 100%, 85%, 70%, 50% or 40% VO2max. He also examined how different intensities and different durations affected different muscle types (fast twitch white, fast twitch red or "intermediate", and slow twitch).

The results were interesting and each fibre type responded differently:

Improvements in mitochondria in fast twitch white fibres began while running at 80% VO2max (but not slower, presumably because they were not recruited) and increased exponentially as the pace climbed to 100% VO2max.

However improvements in fast twitch red (intermediate) fibres maximised at sub-max paces (85% VO2max) and did not get better with increased speed.

And the best way to cause improvements in slow-twitch fibres was to run long and slow at 70% VO2max (adaptation began from as low as 50% VO2max pace). Faster was not better. Although Dudley found that 90 mins was not better than 60 mins, Holloszy had shown that 2hrs was definitely better than one hour (which ties in nicely with Lydiard-type training recommendations that one 2hr run was better than 2 x 60 mins — you have to admit that the guy had great intuition born of his experience trying out different training on himself).

So, (some of you may be way ahead of me already). Why was my 8.00m/m run so difficult?

Well, all my training in the 3 months leading up to it had been relatively hard. I had not trained slow enough for my slow twitch fibres to become stimulated to build huge amounts of mitochondria. My fast twitch red were becoming okay (I was reasonably good for 3-6m fast), but I could not access those fast powerful fibres at 8.00m/m. The intensity was too low. I was being forced to use my slow-twitch fibres... and they were not trained for any kind of endurance, and certainly not 2hrs.

NOW, FROM THE HADD ARTICLE ABOUT JOE

Laboratory findings

Groundbreaking research on the effects of training at VO2max was conducted in 1982 by Gary Dudley, et al. at State University of New York at Syracuse. Dudley induced rats to run once per day, five days per week, at intensities ranging from 40% of VO2max to 100% of VO2max and for various durations (the faster-running rats completed the shortest work bouts) and examined how these durations and intensities affected mitochondrial enzyme activity across the spectrum of muscle fiber types. His findings contrasted somewhat with conclusions from prior work (Holloszy and Booth, 1976) inasmuch as 10-minute bouts at 100% of VO2max were much more influential in mitochondrial production than were longer work bouts (up to 90 minutes) at slower speeds.

Dudley's 1982 research is often cited to bolster the argument that running at VO2max eliminates the need for running longer distances at slower speeds in order to maximize aerobic development. The practical fruits of this myopic and spurious reasoning were harvested in the United States during the latter years of the 1980s and the first half of the 1990s, as high mileage training fell out of favor and hard track work - sans aerobic base - became the norm. During this time, U.S. distance running performances declined significantly. The truth is that both high-volume, low- to moderate-intensity training and skillfully integrated low-volume, high-intensity training are necessary to completely prepare for any event in which oxygen transport and oxygen consumption contribute to energy production.

Dudley, et al. did demonstrate that from a mitochondrial standpoint, higher intensity is generally preferable to duration. However, running performance is ultimately more complex - a gestalt that depends on the interaction of a myriad of factors, a few of which may not yet be identified (or may indeed not be identifiable at all).

Moreover, the use of rats as test subjects presents a number of problems when attempting to draw conclusions for the human athlete. Rats are often used for laboratory experiments due to their low cost, small space requirements, short time span of generations, large litters, and the fact that they are easy to handle - reasons which have nothing to do with any physiological similarity to humans. The training and study of laboratory rats for no more than a few months also depicts a mere snapshot of a complete running career, so any conclusions drawn only serve to shed light on a short-term piece or two of a long-term puzzle.

DO YOU THINK THAT`S BY CHANCE THAT THEY QUOTES THE SAME ARTICLE

NOW ABOUT BILLAT (the French physiologist) innte KELLOG ARTICLE “MAXIMIZING OXYGEN UPTAKE”

Physiologist Veronique Billat suggests jogging between reps for an equal duration and at exactly half the speed used for the work bouts themselves. For example, our hypothetical 14:55 runner (whose vVO2max is 70 seconds per 400) could run 12-16 x 400 at about 5% faster (66-67) with a 200 jog in 66-67 between 400s.

Longer bouts (e.g., 5 x 5-6 minutes) at a somewhat slower pace (roughly 5% slower than vVO2max) and with relatively shorter rest periods (2-3 minutes) will also train the same systems with a slightly different emphasis. Mile repeats (even if they are run faster than 5:00 each) should usually be executed at this approximate effort level for maximum profitability. You can accumulate nearly 30 minutes at this more sedate pace with relatively low risk of excessive acidosis. The runner whose vVO2max is 70 seconds per 400 might choose to perform 5 x 1,600 at 4:54 each (5% slower than vVO2max) with recovery intervals consisting of 2-3 minutes of light jogging. If this pace provides little challenge, the recovery period could be reduced or the work bouts could be extended to nearly 6:00 in duration.

AND THE SAME QUOTE IN THE HADD POSTS

Of course I am not suggesting that elite runners jog around at 7-8 mins/mile (although they might, depending on where they are in their build-up). There was a recent interview with Lydiard in which he said his guys ran their 22-milers at 5.55m/m. I pointed out that this was only M+55secs (assuming they were 2.11-type guys). For a well-aerobically-trained runner, M+55 is no big deal for a Sunday run pace. They also ran their 10-miler in 55 mins (M+30 pace). Again, if you are aerobically trained, this is no big deal (check it against your own marathon pace).

But they won't run these paces all the time. I would expect even an elite athlete to run (as easy as) M+75 secs (maybe even M+90 if the day before was 10-13 miles at M-pace). So it really all depends on what they did the day before and where they are in their build-up. But that would be easy recovery work. Some of the week they will hit M-pace, M+20 (for an hour or more)... and faster.

If you checked that lactate link I put up, you should understand that an elite runner runs a marathon at around 2-2.5mM lactate. Just very very slightly before the curve turns upwards.

Someone like Paula (5.14 pace marathon) will be able to do a lot of her training at 6.00m/m. But at that pace her blood lactate is "calm", as calm as an untrained person sitting in a chair. So of course, once you are well trained aerobically you can benefit from what appears to be very fast paced training (but is actually not so "intense" in terms of effort for the runner involved).

ohss,

Actually Billat came up recently in a discussion with MN Chris. Check here for how it went, maybe answer your question.

IT SEEMS THAT KELLOG AND THAT HADD THEY READ THE SAME ARTICLES AND QUOTE THE SAME EXPERIENCES. WHAT A COINCIDENCE ? !

1)how long did Carlos Lopes take Epo?

2)did Mamede also take Epo for liver treatment?

3)why did Alberto Chaica wear such a long top in the olympics marathon?Its not a fashion contest but that looked very strange, a tatooed man with a long shirt over the shorts.

1/His father used to give him Epo as breakfast. But when there arerumours that the Finns and Viren took blood tranfusion he taugh to take that also in every meal.

2/Epo is good for all diseases

3/The tatoos are a Jesus Christ and a Scorpio, The jesus image that´s his faith (catholic faith) to never forget that a few times when he was kid all his family have nothing to eat and to the faith in Jesus as any other - it helps a lot. Actually he still lives with his wife, and daugther, father and mother in the same humble house.

Scorpio means something secret that he doesn´t reveal, just to close friends, so i will not tell what it means, or want you to know everything ?

About that "long shirt" don´t you know? That´s the Effective Way to Improve the Lactate Threshold !