I feel like this thread should be re-named "Who we wish were the record holders"
Cuz if you guys think out of the dozens of Kenyans and Ethiopians who were faster that there wasn't ONE who was clean, well... you truly are delusional.
I feel like this thread should be re-named "Who we wish were the record holders"
Cuz if you guys think out of the dozens of Kenyans and Ethiopians who were faster that there wasn't ONE who was clean, well... you truly are delusional.
Rocket Fuel Rick wrote:
The ugly American wrote:
Soviet and East German swimmers and middle-distance females were on sophisticated doping programs in the 60s and 70s and 80s (and Russia continues the practice today). Certainly the men were too. So, clearly it was being done 20-30 years before Aouita ran 3:31/13:05.
What do you consider so "sophisticated" about the GDR doping program? The primary steroid they were using was simple oral-Turinabol. And some supplemental PEDs were testosterone esters and amphetamines. So, nothing too shocking there.
The Turinabol was very effective with the female mid-d runners. According to GDR training records, they were experiencing performance improvements over four years as follows: "400m (women) 4–5 sec; 800 m (women) 5–10 sec; 1500 m (women) 7–10 sec."
20 yrs or so later, Russia followed the GDR blueprint for their female mid-d runners using oral Turinabol as their primary poison with a little O2-vector doping sprinkled in. For those that Turinabol was too androgenic then Oxandrolone was used. And we all saw how that turned out with some of the high-responders winning Olympic & WC medals right & left (e.g., Zaripova, Savinova, Poistagova, Krivoshapka, Abitova).
You pointed out what was "sophisticated" about it -- "400m (women) 4–5 sec; 800 m (women) 5–10 sec; 1500 m (women) 7–10 sec."
In the 400m, 11 straight WRs were set by women from East Germany or Soviet satellite states over 1975 to 1985, culminating in 47.60 by Koch, a mark that has stood for 33 years.
In the 800m, 15 out of 20 consecutive WRs were set by women from East Germany or Soviet satellite states over 33 years from 1950 to 1983, culminating in 1:53.28 by Kratochvilova, a mark that has stood for 35 years.
Keep in mind that the 800m WR progressed from 2:13.0 to 1:53.28 over the 33 years before 1983. In the 35 years SINCE then it has not progressed at ALL.
In the 1500m, 9 straight WRs were set by women from East Germany or Soviet satellite states from 1969 to 1980, culminating in 3:52.47 by Kazankina, a mark that has stood for 35 years. Just one WR was set in by a non-soviet athlete in 50 years (Dibaba). The WR has only advanced 2.40 seconds despite the introduction of HGH and EPO.
I don't have time to detail how dominant they were in swimming.
I would call those systematic doping programs "sophisticated" if only because they were so highly effective and for most events the WRs have not advanced at all even though the world has had 33-40 years of time to attempt.
The idea that you felt you needed to comment was idiotic.
confused reader wrote:
Libertarian vegan wrote:
Who was the last full natty at every event in track and field?
My guess
800m. David Little, Ralph Doubell and Peter Snell tied
1500m Steve Ovett
3000m Henry Rono
5000m David Moorcroft
10000m Henry Rono
Half Marathon Steve Jones
Marathon Carlos lopes
3000m steeple chase Henry Rono
Now who is the current clean record holder?
My guess
800m Alan Webb
1500m Alan Webb
3000m craig Mottram
5000m Craig Mottram
10000m Mark Nenow
Half Marathon Ryan Hall
Marathon Ryan Hall
3000m steeple chase Evan Jager
Can someone this original post to me? The first list is "who was the last full natty" then the second list is "current clean record holder". Shouldn't those be the same people? How is Ovett the last full natty yet Webb who came after him is the clean record holder?
The first list is the last official record holder who was clean, and the second list is speculation as to who has the fastest clean time.
The ugly American wrote:
I don't have time to detail how dominant they were in swimming.
I would call those systematic doping programs "sophisticated" if only because they were so highly effective and for most events the WRs have not advanced at all even though the world has had 33-40 years of time to attempt.
The idea that you felt you needed to comment was idiotic.
Not so much you don't have time, but that the dominance isn't really anything near as remarkable.
It's interesting that some of the WRs they set on the track have stood so long, yet in the pool they've been absolutely smashed, repeatedly.
kittygirl wrote:
I feel like this thread should be re-named "Who we wish were the record holders"
Cuz if you guys think out of the dozens of Kenyans and Ethiopians who were faster that there wasn't ONE who was clean, well... you truly are delusional.
To be fair, Coevett also excludes any Americans (regardless of race), all Africans (not just Kenya and Ethiopia), and any black Brits.
wtfunny wrote:
Not so much you don't have time, but that the dominance isn't really anything near as remarkable.
It's interesting that some of the WRs they set on the track have stood so long, yet in the pool they've been absolutely smashed, repeatedly.
No, I meant that I did not have time to post the Olympic results from 1950 to 1992. I do have the time to post one set of results from one swimming Olympiad though.
Here are the results from the Montreal Games. Notice that the U.S. men are so dominant that they win nearly EVERY gold medal up for grabs. Also realize that in swimming a nation can only enter THREE athletes per event, just like track. The U.S. men won ELEVEN out of TWELVE events contested.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swimming_at_the_1976_Summer_OlympicsSetting a WR in TEN of the ELEVEN races they won golds in.
They won 27 out of 33 available medals in individual events, and won gold in BOTH relays.
The only way they could dominate more is if they won 35 out of 35 medals and set one more WR. It was an astounding level of domination by the U.S..
NOW, enter the GDR and the URS women's teams.
Notice that the women from these soviet-backed teams are so dominant that they win nearly EVERY gold medal up for grabs. They won 12 out of 13 events, and 21 out of 33 individual event medals. The USA won ONE relay. They set WRs in 8 out of 13 events and Olympic Records for 3 other events. They also dominated the European Championships and World Championships of swimming the same way. Look at the World Aquatics Championships from any year in the 70s or 80s.
Chosen at random:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1973_World_Aquatics_ChampionshipsJust look at that Olympic Medal grid?!? Don't see how you could say that domination of the teams with state-sponsored doping "isn't really anything near as remarkable." Their domination is much more complete than it was even in track and field. Or at least on par.
It is really idiotic that you felt the need to say this.
spade detector wrote:
kittygirl wrote:
I feel like this thread should be re-named "Who we wish were the record holders"
Cuz if you guys think out of the dozens of Kenyans and Ethiopians who were faster that there wasn't ONE who was clean, well... you truly are delusional.
To be fair, Coevett also excludes any Americans (regardless of race), all Africans (not just Kenya and Ethiopia), and any black Brits.
Haha, funny, but not true apart from Iwen Thomas at 400m, but even there I don't think a white American has run faster?
100m/200m Christophe LeMaitre is the fastest white guy as far as I'm aware.
800m, obviously Seb Coe is.
1500m, Nick Willis, who I admitted is likely the clean world record holder, and who is 1/100th of a second faster than Cram.
Mile Steve Cram is the fastest white guy.
5000m, Craig Mottram is the fastest white guy.
Coevett wrote:
spade detector wrote:
To be fair, Coevett also excludes any Americans (regardless of race), all Africans (not just Kenya and Ethiopia), and any black Brits.
Haha, funny, but not true apart from Iwen Thomas at 400m, but even there I don't think a white American has run faster?
100m/200m Christophe LeMaitre is the fastest white guy as far as I'm aware.
800m, obviously Seb Coe is.
1500m, Nick Willis, who I admitted is likely the clean world record holder, and who is 1/100th of a second faster than Cram.
Mile Steve Cram is the fastest white guy.
5000m, Craig Mottram is the fastest white guy.
Actually, it could be that Andrew Rock is the clean 400m world record holder. Just 1/100th of a second faster than Iwan Thomas.
Looking at the 400m all time list, it's a curious fact that the 4 fastest white guys in history are all within 0.02 seconds of each other.
1 (50) Andrew Rock 44:35
2 (51) Iwan Thomas 44:36
3 (54) Roger Black 44:37
4 (57) Darren Clark 44:38
Coevett wrote:
spade detector wrote:
To be fair, Coevett also excludes any Americans (regardless of race), all Africans (not just Kenya and Ethiopia), and any black Brits.
Haha, funny, but not true apart from Iwen Thomas at 400m, but even there I don't think a white American has run faster?
100m/200m Christophe LeMaitre is the fastest white guy as far as I'm aware.
800m, obviously Seb Coe is.
1500m, Nick Willis, who I admitted is likely the clean world record holder, and who is 1/100th of a second faster than Cram.
Mile Steve Cram is the fastest white guy.
5000m, Craig Mottram is the fastest white guy.
1) Yes, there has been a white American than Thomas. And Mottram.
2) You listed Abrahams and Liddle as the last clean record holders. There were white Americans who were record holders after them.
spade detector wrote:
Coevett wrote:
Haha, funny, but not true apart from Iwen Thomas at 400m, but even there I don't think a white American has run faster?
100m/200m Christophe LeMaitre is the fastest white guy as far as I'm aware.
800m, obviously Seb Coe is.
1500m, Nick Willis, who I admitted is likely the clean world record holder, and who is 1/100th of a second faster than Cram.
Mile Steve Cram is the fastest white guy.
5000m, Craig Mottram is the fastest white guy.
1) Yes, there has been a white American than Thomas. And Mottram.
2) You listed Abrahams and Liddle as the last clean record holders. There were white Americans who were record holders after them.
*faster than Thomas
*Liddell
Don't want to get flamed for my grammar and spelling.
The ugly American wrote:
Rocket Fuel Rick wrote:
What do you consider so "sophisticated" about the GDR doping program? The primary steroid they were using was simple oral-Turinabol. And some supplemental PEDs were testosterone esters and amphetamines. So, nothing too shocking there.
The Turinabol was very effective with the female mid-d runners. According to GDR training records, they were experiencing performance improvements over four years as follows: "400m (women) 4–5 sec; 800 m (women) 5–10 sec; 1500 m (women) 7–10 sec."
20 yrs or so later, Russia followed the GDR blueprint for their female mid-d runners using oral Turinabol as their primary poison with a little O2-vector doping sprinkled in. For those that Turinabol was too androgenic then Oxandrolone was used. And we all saw how that turned out with some of the high-responders winning Olympic & WC medals right & left (e.g., Zaripova, Savinova, Poistagova, Krivoshapka, Abitova).
You pointed out what was "sophisticated" about it -- "400m (women) 4–5 sec; 800 m (women) 5–10 sec; 1500 m (women) 7–10 sec."
In the 400m, 11 straight WRs were set by women from East Germany or Soviet satellite states over 1975 to 1985, culminating in 47.60 by Koch, a mark that has stood for 33 years.
In the 800m, 15 out of 20 consecutive WRs were set by women from East Germany or Soviet satellite states over 33 years from 1950 to 1983, culminating in 1:53.28 by Kratochvilova, a mark that has stood for 35 years.
Keep in mind that the 800m WR progressed from 2:13.0 to 1:53.28 over the 33 years before 1983. In the 35 years SINCE then it has not progressed at ALL.
In the 1500m, 9 straight WRs were set by women from East Germany or Soviet satellite states from 1969 to 1980, culminating in 3:52.47 by Kazankina, a mark that has stood for 35 years. Just one WR was set in by a non-soviet athlete in 50 years (Dibaba). The WR has only advanced 2.40 seconds despite the introduction of HGH and EPO.
I don't have time to detail how dominant they were in swimming.
I would call those systematic doping programs "sophisticated" if only because they were so highly effective and for most events the WRs have not advanced at all even though the world has had 33-40 years of time to attempt.
The idea that you felt you needed to comment was idiotic.
The fact that you post in the first place is "idiotic." You got called out and so you're Mr. Wiseass now
There's absolutely nothing "sophisticated" about the androgenization of female athletes into males by virtue of a single potent steroid (turinabol) that has been around since the early 1960s. The East German's were using that sh*t like crazy - massive dosages with their athletes. Koch was doped to gills with that stuff. Kratochvilova? Please...she's looks nothing a like female back in her prime. Just because someone has a strong response to dope and runs very fast doesn't mean it's a "sophisticated" program. There were using a 1960s steroid that any other athlete had access to...no surprises there.
You're simply watching too many Lance Armstrong documentaries. ?
The ugly American wrote:
You pointed out what was "sophisticated" about it -- "400m (women) 4–5 sec; 800 m (women) 5–10 sec; 1500 m (women) 7–10 sec."
That, yes, and Jenapharm etc.
See here, quite new:
http://www.zeit.de/sport/2018-03/doping-ddr-sport-dopingopfer-kinder-folgen-hilfe-english"Scientific institutions were directly involved in the system, including the secret Research Institute for Physical Education and Sports Leipzig and the pharmaceutical industry, led by the state-run company Jenapharm, which produced the so-called "blue miracle pill" (Oral Turinabol), an anabolic steroid. Sports groups such as the German Gymnastics and Sports Federation, the National Olympic Committee and the Sports Medicine Service were also involved. The central doping laboratory in Kreischa tested the athletes for one reason only: to ensure that they didn't fail drug tests during competitions abroad."
So to claim that Aouita was the first doped mid distance runner, is quite ignorant, or more precisely: plainly wrong.
The handsome American wrote:
The fact that you post in the first place is "idiotic." You got called out and so you're Mr. Wiseass now
There's absolutely nothing "sophisticated" about the androgenization of female athletes into males by virtue of a single potent steroid (turinabol) that has been around since the early 1960s. The East German's were using that sh*t like crazy - massive dosages with their athletes. Koch was doped to gills with that stuff. Kratochvilova? Please...she's looks nothing a like female back in her prime. Just because someone has a strong response to dope and runs very fast doesn't mean it's a "sophisticated" program. There were using a 1960s steroid that any other athlete had access to...no surprises there.
You're simply watching too many Lance Armstrong documentaries. ?
Here is the post (in context). It was a comment about Aouita NOT being the first Middle-distance runner in history to have doped. That is all nothing more. Full stop.
"Your comment about Aouita being the first is so idiotic that I cannot take time to fathom the depths of your ignorance. Look up Martti Vainio (who was caught for combining steroids to make his blood doping more efficient in 1984) and you will realize that Aouita came onto the scene in 1983.
Soviet and East German swimmers and middle-distance females were on sophisticated doping programs in the 60s and 70s and 80s (and Russia continues the practice today). Certainly the men were too. So, clearly it was being done 20-30 years before Aouita ran 3:31/13:05."
My point was that if Vainio was caught for steroids in 1984 and it was due to a transfusion he had withdrawn earlier, AND Aouita emerged in 1983, it was very unlikely that Aouita was the first middle distance runner to be doping. As you likely know, Vainio had been world class since 1977 at least and was European Champion in the second fastest time ALL-TIME in 1978. He was doping in 1984 and got the transfusion wrong, and I believe he was doping with all the rest of the European distance runners in 1978.
Again, it was just about Aouita NOT being the first middle distance doper. If you feel better calling me names and trying to prove me wrong, you won't be able to do it. Aouita was NOT the first and there is plenty of evidence of that.
The second paragraph was for the same reason, just about Aouita NOT being the first middle distance doper, nothing else. I don't care how inaccurate you have the situation in the GDR 50 years ago. The three sentences are all completely accurate and it does not matter whether you think the systematic doping in the GDR and THE USSR were sophisticated or not, it doesn't change the fact that Aouita was NOT the first middle distance doper.
Most children would compete in youth sport centers and be scouted by the government, which resulted in the best prospects being taken for the purpose of intense Olympic training. These children were expected to deliver great victories, and the state was willing to use anything at its disposal to ensure that. The advances in medicine and science meant that use of steroids, amphetamines, human growth hormones and blood boosting were common practice behind the scenes in training centers for professional athletes. Not just one steroid. Everyone knows this.
If you don't view the most successful sports training system in the history of man as "sophisticated" that is fine. Whether you view it as primitive or mainstream or cutting-edge, it does not change the fact that this doping that they were proven to be doing was being done 30 years before Aouita.
The ugly American wrote:
...it doesn't change the fact that Aouita was NOT the first middle distance doper.
Who's saying that Aouita was the first middle-distance doper? Maybe that's Coevett's platform? (he despises the Africans).
Coevett wrote:
Aouita was probably the first middle-distance PED user, taking advantage of the new HGH available in the USA and guessing correctly that roids can be of benefit to distance runners if used for training recovery and if combined with blood doping.
I think it was on page 2. He has since realized that middle distance runners, even the WR holders (females at least!!), were much earlier. So let him be.
Coevett wrote:
Looking at the 400m all time list, it's a curious fact that the 4 fastest white guys in history are all within 0.02 seconds of each other.
1 (50) Andrew Rock 44:35
2 (51) Iwan Thomas 44:36
3 (54) Roger Black 44:37
4 (57) Darren Clark 44:38
https://www.iaaf.org/records/all-time-toplists/sprints/400-metres/outdoor/men/senior?regionType=world&timing=electronic&page=1&bestResultsOnly=true&firstDay=1900-01-01&lastDay=2018-03-27
Jeremy Wariner looks pretty white to me mate
https://www.google.com/search?source=hp&ei=4jC7WtyoKYTy8QXh2I6gAw&q=jeremy+wariner&oq=jeremy+war&gs_l=mobile-gws-hp.1.0.0l5.1473.5852..7176...0....290.2587.2-11..........1..mobile-gws-wiz-hp.....3..46j35i39j0i131j0i131i46j46i131j0i46.AR01W7AL1Gk%3D#imgdii=_gx58dtziGHV7M:&imgrc=gLpDQy8gFBH5yM:
As does Alberto Juantorena
https://www.google.com/search?source=hp&ei=jDG7WqD7I4m58QXOm6HwBQ&q=alberto+juantorena&oq=Alberto+j&gs_l=mobile-gws-hp.1.0.0j0i46j46l2j0l3.19264.26011..27429...3....530.3076.2-9j1j0j1..........1..mobile-gws-wiz-hp.....3..35i39j0i67j0i131i67.DD0M82TutKQ%3D#imgrc=P6BKUS9-IHZ7-M:
Coevett wrote:
Looking at the 400m all time list, it's a curious fact that the 4 fastest white guys in history are all within 0.02 seconds of each other.
1 (50) Andrew Rock 44:35
2 (51) Iwan Thomas 44:36
3 (54) Roger Black 44:37
4 (57) Darren Clark 44:38
https://www.iaaf.org/records/all-time-toplists/sprints/400-metres/outdoor/men/senior?regionType=world&timing=electronic&page=1&bestResultsOnly=true&firstDay=1900-01-01&lastDay=2018-03-27
Alekandro Cardenas 43.31
Jeremy Wariner - more white than black, but looks rather mixed to me.
https://sk.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeremy_Wariner#/media/File:Osaka07_D5A_Jeremy_Wariner.jpg
Alberto Juantuareno - We're talking about likely clean, with the bar set very high. Also, there is some debate about his ethnicity. Just Google image him, and there's been a thread devoted to it here. Also interesting threads regarding whether he doped. Some brief facts - won 800m Olympic gold and broke WR after 1 year of training for the event. Had a Polish coach (in 1970s). Grandson, also an athlete, busted for peds, the 18th Cuban athlete to fail a test.
http://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=3471729
Alexandro Cardenas - well, yes if you include hispanics. But then why not claim that El G is the fastest clean white Miler and make this thread redundant?
My sides! The British (and Anglo-Saxons, by extension) are the most intrinsically athletic people on earth. The absurdity of this is beyond staggering. And even more astounding, Coevett is not the only Brit on this board who thinks this way.
Speaking of Coe and Ovett; They benefitted massively from the Kenyan boycotts of two consecutive Olympics (Montreal 1976 & Moscow 1980) which set the country's athletics programme back a decade. By the time of their return in Los Angeles 1984, they were a pale shadow of the teams led by Kip Keino in 1968 and 1972 that turned the world to altitude training in order to compete, and could only muster one gold medal in the steeple. Coe and Ovett were extremely lucky there were no Kenyans in Moscow.
