That double is just absolutely ridiculous. I always thought that it was just an amazing performance, but having grown up a bit, the more I think about it, the more I realize how impossible that double should have been.
Anybody have any info as well on the schedule of the meet and on which days he ran?
Sad as it is, he fits the ped profile exactly. Mid/late 1970s. Eastern block/communist country. Polish coach. Makes an Olympic semi in year 2 of training. World record in the Oly final after training for the event 1 year.
Wikipedia:
Born in Santiago de Cuba, Juantorena first played basketball, until he was discovered by a Polish track coach, Zygmunt Zabierzowski, who convinced him to start running. Only a year later, Juantorena was eliminated in the semi-finals of the 400 m event at the Munich Olympics (1972).
Juantorena became better known in the next years, winning a gold medal at the World University Games (1973) and a silver at the 1975 Pan American Games, both in the 400 m. He only seriously took up running the 800 m in 1976, so few thought he was a candidate for the Olympic gold that year. However, Juantorena made it to the Olympic final, and led the field for most of the race, eventually winning in a world record time of 1:43.50. Three days later, he also won the 400 m final, setting a low-altitude world record of 44.26.
[quote]tyui wrote:
Sad as it is, he fits the ped profile exactly. Mid/late 1970s. Eastern block/communist country. Polish coach. Makes an Olympic semi in year 2 of training. World record in the Oly final after training for the event 1 year.
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Wrong. It does not take years to develop into a good 800 runner. In regard to him bursting onto the scene, the profile he fits in that regard is that of all the other Olympic gold medalists and world record holders who went just before him. Peter Snell (1960, 64), Ralph Doubell (68) and Dave Wottle (72) were all 22-24 years old who pretty much came out of nowhere when they won the 800 Olympic gold (at least the first for Snell) and set WRs (they were not unknown, but certainly had not been dominating the 800 for a couple years). And only Snell went on to have much of a career afterwards. Jim Ryun broke the half mile record as a 19 year old. So all of them dirty? I am not saying this "proves" El Caballo was clean. I don't know. But your overconfident "profiling" falls far short.
si.
tyui wrote:
Sad as it is, he fits the ped profile exactly. Mid/late 1970s. Eastern block/communist country. Polish coach. Makes an Olympic semi in year 2 of training. World record in the Oly final after training for the event 1 year.
Wikipedia:
Considering that after the Berlin Wall fell it eventually was revealed that the East German's, Poles and Soviets all had doping programs, it is fairly likely that Jaunto was dirty.
The funny thing is the IAAF know this, and he's still an ambassador for the sport.
It is pathetic, and we know now that W. Cierpinksi (sp) was on steroids, and the IOC has done nothing to strip him of his gold medal -- nor has he had the ethics to confess and turn it in.
You have to wonder about the morals and ethics of some of these former Soviet, EG, and Polish athletes, does anyone know any stories of any of their medal winners coming clean and offering their ill gotten medals back??
I know many of them did not know that their program enforced and prescribed vitamin programs included steroids at the time...but in retrospect you'd think a few would have a conscious and have some ethics, realizing they had an unfair advantage -- and cheated, and want to honor athletes that competed fairly.
Any stories??
And I just wonder what time limitations the IOC thinks is enough to obviate ethics.
If Marion Jones is guilty, 100's of former Soviet, EG, and Polish athletes are guilty. The evidence was found; paperwork etc., records of EG own testing program by which they withdrew athletes from the games at the last minute if they showed in EG tests that they would likely test positive at the games etc. Old Waldemere(sp) and his clones are all frauds.
Born in Santiago de Cuba, Juantorena first played basketball, until he was discovered by a Polish track coach, Zygmunt Zabierzowski, who convinced him to start running. Only a year later, Juantorena was eliminated in the semi-finals of the 400 m event at the Munich Olympics (1972).
Juantorena became better known in the next years, winning a gold medal at the World University Games (1973) and a silver at the 1975 Pan American Games, both in the 400 m. He only seriously took up running the 800 m in 1976, so few thought he was a candidate for the Olympic gold that year. However, Juantorena made it to the Olympic final, and led the field for most of the race, eventually winning in a world record time of 1:43.50. Three days later, he also won the 400 m final, setting a low-altitude world record of 44.26.
Is Alberto Juantorena update?
El Caballo wrote:
That double is just absolutely ridiculous. I always thought that it was just an amazing performance, but having grown up a bit, the more I think about it, the more I realize how impossible that double should have been.
Anybody have any info as well on the schedule of the meet and on which days he ran?
that isnt the profile of a doper, thats the profile of someone with freakish talent. The profile of a doper is someone who has many years of mediocrity then suddenly bursts into World beating form ala Ramzi.
In 2006, Osmany Juantorena Portuondo was the 18th Cuban athlete to be disqualified for drugs. He is Alberto Juantorena's grandson
http://www.fivb.org/En/Volleyball/Forms/Medical/Doping%20Cases_20091216.pdf
Would still hate to think his grandad was
Eh - there are many different profiles of dopers. There are plenty of cases of young athletes coming out of nowhere to be world class who turned out to be cheats. See Simon Kemboi and Lydia Cheromei. But there are others who match the pattern you describe also. Wikipedia has a fascinating and depressing site listing all people caught:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_doping_cases_in_sport
Furious D wrote:
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El Caballo wrote:That double is just absolutely ridiculous. I always thought that it was just an amazing performance, but having grown up a bit, the more I think about it, the more I realize how impossible that double should have been.
Anybody have any info as well on the schedule of the meet and on which days he ran?
that isnt the profile of a doper, thats the profile of someone with freakish talent. The profile of a doper is someone who has many years of mediocrity then suddenly bursts into World beating form ala Ramzi.
Yes, he was sweaty after his runs before he took a shower.
Of course. But almost all Oly champs are dirty.
5er wrote:There are plenty of cases of young athletes coming out of nowhere to be world class who turned out to be cheats. See Simon Kemboi and Lydia Cheromei
lydia was on clomiphene - for fertlity treatment
if she'd asked for a TUE prior to starting it, she wouda been fine, but obviously communication wasn't great between the concerned authorities :
http://allafrica.com/stories/200701240022.htmlhttp://www.wada-ama.org/rtecontent/document/Infertility_en.pdfanyone who seriously believes clomiphene turns you into a world beater needs their head examined...
Of course. But almost all Oly champs are dirty.
Nick Symmonds though has never been an Oly champ.
Oh, yes, right. Because all athletes from the West were at that time completely clean and clueless what was happening in pharmacology... Hahahaha. Everybody and their dog had doped at that time, no matter whether they were from West or East. It was part of the 70's and 80's sports culture to take steroids. The only difference is that behing the iron curtain it was official and state sponsored and enforced, whereas in the West it was concealed and on the individual/small team basis. After the curtain fell, the whole world could see the documents from the East, and they could point the finger. It was the same, if not wose in the West, but everybody remained silent. Only idiots admitted doping voluntarily. Who would deliberately ruin his/her career and fame that could earn him/her nice $ even in retirement. Only an idiot.
Get over it, it's the past. Most of the athletes had even playing field, because most if not all of them at the very top had been doped.
It would be more interesting to know how it goes for real nowadays. I mean FOR REAL.
I disagree.
If it was a level playing field, then why did the East Europeans (mainly GDR and USSR) dominate in the women's events and the power/technical side of things to a ridiculously high level?
Surely if the UK and rest of Europe were also taking steroids they would be equally as good. There was no one in any events of that type that could really compete with the East Europeans.
Fast forward to the late 90's onwards, and one would hope a more level playing field, and there are athletes from all over the world who can legitimately win medals. I'm not saying that there are no drugs now (in fact I would say it is probably as widespread but more spread out in terms of national boundaries), but that I think there were far fewer athletes outside the Iron Curtain partaking of them in the '70's and 80's.
You've also got to remember that due to amateur status (yes, I know there would have been some back-handed payments)prior to 1982, there was little money to be made in the sport compared to today. Thus, there was less reason to take drugs (of which there were far fewer, cruder types that really only benefitted power events and women; i.e steroids), apart from those athletes competing for countries that carried out state sanctioned doping regimes.
Many countries actually carried out "off season" random testing a lot earlier than people think. Certainly in the UK this was happening as early as 1983/84.
I have no idea whether Juantorena was using PEDs. If he was, it must have been an incredibly sophisticated cocktail to get him to be the best in 2 very different events simultaneously. With all the advances in drugs, training, facilities, etc, one would think that there would have been someone else since to do what he did. There hasn't! So perhaps he was just supremely talented.
If Michael Johnson can run a 19.32 in his 8th race at the Games and Usain Bolt can run 19.30 in his 8th race why couldn't Juantorena complete his double?
the 100-200 double has been done by many - that is not a freakish accomplishment. The 400-800 is rarely even attempted let alone conquered.
X-Runner wrote:
If Michael Johnson can run a 19.32 in his 8th race at the Games and Usain Bolt can run 19.30 in his 8th race why couldn't Juantorena complete his double?
Well East Europeans don t pump money into sports as they were doing before.
Before 1989 the only way to have a nice normal life in eastern europe was to be an athlete. They had a good recruiting system, facilities and coaches all over the place. It was a national policy to be good in sports and now it isn `t.
Having experienced both systems I can say I am 100% American athletes use far more and better illegal perf. enhancing drugs than eastern europeans.
Cuba ,still communist, is still a world power in athletics. Reported to size and population is still destroying most of the bigger countries. Just last year top 20 in the world in the triple jump, 10-12 were Cubans....
tyui wrote:
Sad as it is, he fits the ped profile exactly.
This thread is about Juantorena, not Ritz.
Juantorena ran 44.26/1:43.50 for sea level wr and wr in 1976, but he ran 44.27 and separately 1:43.38 in 1978, so he was arguably even better or as good two years later.
What was his weight?
Mark Everett, however, did almost as well, but six years apart in running 44.59 in 1991 and 1:43.20 in 1997.