Rules Broken in Woman's Olympic Marathon Trials

Unqualified assistance wrote:

gaglrsg wrote:

Shalane most definitely had an advantage no other athlete in the race had - aided by another racer. Shalane would be sitting on the road missing the Olympic marathon team had it not been for Amy. The integrity of her qualification is clearly wrong. She did not qualify for the Olympic team on her own. Rationalization does not change the principle of the unfairness in her qualifying for Rio. Shalane would not have been able to qualify on her own.

Well said.

Contrary to some assertions, Katz does not make the rules.

According to the rules, a runner cannot pick up another runner's bottles and hand it to them. Nor can you have someone else pick up your personal bottle and hand it to you.

Please provide link to the rule that says that?

That's is true wrote:No, it did help Flanagan. Instrumental for her finishing the race. On her own she would never get that bottle.

You say that, but there's no reason to believe it's true. If you read Flanagan's interview, she couldn't get down fluids before they reached the last water station because the fluids were all sitting in her stomach. That was why she was having trouble to begin with. There's no reason to believe that putting additional fluids into her stomach between the last station and the finish was "instrumental" for her to finish the race.

The point of the issue wrote:

mountain from molehill wrote:

What if the two were best of friends WITHOUT being teammates. The same situation could still happen.

The issue is that Cragg picked up Flanagan's bottle, for Flanagan and gave it to her, because Flanagan wasn't getting the bottle for herself, and had Cragg not given Flanagan's bottle to Flanagan, Flanagan most likely would have dropped out of the race, and Goucher would have finished in 3rd place.

I don't care for Goucher, but I don't care for certain runners getting illegal race advantages that others don't have, particularly when such advantage results in an undeserved place on the team.

And my post was in reply to those talking about this would only happen between teammates.

And as has been discussed and POINTED out, since you like points, is that there was no ILLEGAL advantage since passing a water bottle to a competitor is not against the rules. You may think that it should be but that does not change the fact that it isn't.

Rules Bending wrote:

coach deez nuts wrote:

Attention numb nuts, per the person who ACTUALLY MAKES THESE RULINGS there was no rules violation at this years trials.

You can debate all you want about what SHOULD be the ruling but the fact of the matter is Amy and Shalane absolutely, 100% DID NOT CHEAT per the rules that are currently in place.

Cragg-Flanagan bent the rules too far. When have other teammates resorted to the level of assistance Cragg provided? It is similar to picking your teammate up and forcing them to cross the finish line. Without the special water bottle Flanagan would have dropped out. She essentially said so her, didn't know what she would have done without Cragg's help.

You have no idea if Flanagan would have dropped out or not without that water bottle. Keep telling yourself that though if it makes you feel better.

That's is true wrote:

No harm, no foul wrote:

...and probably did not help Flanagan anyway because she wasn't able to absorb her special fluids by the end of the race as I posted above.

No, it did help Flanagan. Instrumental for her finishing the race. On her own she would never get that bottle.

You have no idea if Flanagan would have dropped out or not without that water bottle. Keep telling yourself that though if it makes you feel better.

the question of "pacing" here is dumb. Flannigan couldn't keep up with Cragg. End of story.

Shalane going to Olympics wrote:

You have no idea if Flanagan would have dropped out or not without that water bottle. Keep telling yourself that though if it makes you feel better.

The same goes for illegal pacing, giving fluids to a runner from a bicycle, and pulling a runner along faster with a rope. In all of these cases the runner would be getting an unfair advantage and should be DQ'd from results.

No harm, no foul wrote:

That's is true wrote:No, it did help Flanagan. Instrumental for her finishing the race. On her own she would never get that bottle.

You say that, but there's no reason to believe it's true. If you read Flanagan's interview, she couldn't get down fluids before they reached the last water station because the fluids were all sitting in her stomach. That was why she was having trouble to begin with. There's no reason to believe that putting additional fluids into her stomach between the last station and the finish was "instrumental" for her to finish the race.

You are incorrect. You know nothing about what happens to a mind and body when it hits the wall. Flanagan hit the wall, and she hit it real hard.

The extra fluids saved her raced: fact.

No harm, no foul wrote:

That's is true wrote:No, it did help Flanagan. Instrumental for her finishing the race. On her own she would never get that bottle.

You say that, but there's no reason to believe it's true. If you read Flanagan's interview, she couldn't get down fluids before they reached the last water station because the fluids were all sitting in her stomach. That was why she was having trouble to begin with. There's no reason to believe that putting additional fluids into her stomach between the last station and the finish was "instrumental" for her to finish the race.

You are incorrect. You know nothing about what happens to a mind and body when it hits the wall. Flanagan hit the wall, and she hit it real hard.

The extra fluids saved her race: fact.

Shalane going to Olympics wrote:

That's is true wrote:

No, it did help Flanagan. Instrumental for her finishing the race. On her own she would never get that bottle.

You have no idea if Flanagan would have dropped out or not without that water bottle. Keep telling yourself that though if it makes you feel better.

Flanagan said so in her interview. She didn't know what she would have do without Cragg's heroics. She was mentally DONE with miles to go.

Special Fluids wrote:

JoeGarland wrote:

I agree that the only possible violation is the passing of water bottles.

Except that the bottle was not passed/shared. It was not a generic water bottle. It was Flanagan's special fluids bottle intended only for her, and she was so out of it she wasn't able to retrieve it herself. In fact, it appear Flanagan had no clue she was supposed to get her bottle at that station.

If Cragg would have grabbed a plain water bottle then no problem. That it was a special bottle the athlete would missed without help is why the situation needs clarification from the USATF.

It was not a special bottle, it was a plain water bottle that she drank and dumped over herself

I quite like this talk about Amy and Shalane and how they share their fluids.

Shalanefan wrote:

It was not a special bottle, it was a plain water bottle that she drank and dumped over herself

I've really been wondering about this myself! I could have sworn that I remembered Amy picking up a plain water bottle and passing it along. Is there really any confirmation that she passed along her "special" bottle?

In a different situation - at World Juniors in Moncton, racewalk on the track. Two Russian teammates walking together. The water table was a few lanes out. One Russian kept going to the table, picking up two bottles and taking one over to his teammate. So one fellow never had to take the few extra strides to get water, Like having his own personal servant out there. Seemed unfair since everyone else who wanted water had to go get it themselves but there was no DQ.

that pig wrote:

I quite like this talk about Amy and Shalane and how they share their fluids.

After reading your post I'm guessing you just celebrated your 12th birthday. Congratulations! What a $hit for brains you are. The only fluids you'll ever share are your own with yourself. Stay thirsty my friend.

It was a plain water bottle.

Screencap of her grabbing the water and one showing Shalane with the water bottle.

http://i.imgur.com/eXk8NPW.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/61YwveN.jpg

Amy was feeding bottles to her constantly.

Shalanefan wrote:

Special Fluids wrote:

Except that the bottle was not passed/shared. It was not a generic water bottle. It was Flanagan's special fluids bottle intended only for her, and she was so out of it she wasn't able to retrieve it herself. In fact, it appear Flanagan had no clue she was supposed to get her bottle at that station.

If Cragg would have grabbed a plain water bottle then no problem. That it was a special bottle the athlete would missed without help is why the situation needs clarification from the USATF.

It was not a special bottle, it was a plain water bottle that she drank and dumped over herself

Pics????

Cragg grabbed a special bottle intended for Flanagan.

M Runner wrote:

Shalanefan wrote:

It was not a special bottle, it was a plain water bottle that she drank and dumped over herself

I've really been wondering about this myself! I could have sworn that I remembered Amy picking up a plain water bottle and passing it along. Is there really any confirmation that she passed along her "special" bottle?

Is there really any confirmation that she passed along a generic "water" bottle?