Doubling

aggie runner wrote:

There is no sense in doing doubles unless you are running at least 75 miles per week.

Bull puckey. Doubles are good at nearly any mileage level. Facts are, aerobically you'll be at a higher HR for 15 to 20 minutes after any workout. You run once a day for 60 minutes your total elevated HR is around 80 minutes. You run twice for 30 minutes your total elevated HR is 90-100.

If you an run once a day for 8, you can run 3 and 7 for 10. More time on the feet, more time at elevated HR, more training effect. Doubles win hands down.

Some Coach wrote:

I try to get the HS kids I coach to work into this by August, so that they can handle this the four weeks prior to the "official" start of the season.

But I also find that doing doubles during the school year can be problematic; I coach at a school where the work load is high for the academic kids we tend to work with, and I believe that sleep is more important than the two sessions. But .... I'd love to see us hold onto the doubles through to the end of the season in some way, shape or form.

Any suggestions?

1) the clock has 24 hours

2) "don't waste good time" - John Ngugi

malmo wrote:

1) the clock has 24 hours

2) "don't waste good time" - John Ngugi

Yeah, what I figured. No easy solution. The ones willing to committ will do the work, and not spend dumb time on letsrun ......

Coach, or schedule gym class in the morning and run then...

Some Coach wrote:

To the rest of you .... stop trying to see who can piss on the wall highest ....

The answer to that question is Phillip "Tiny" Kane. He could piss into a 2nd story window. I don't know how he did it.

One note on the above 12 week schedule - I type 12-11-10 etc. - this is the number of weeks before you want to race, or how many weeks out until the big race.

I also remember dr. dave drawing a circle in front of me, and then asking me how many hours I slept, worked out, ate, drove to and from the workout, 2nd workout, etc. Each time, he would fill in the circle, which represented 24 hours, that part which related to how many hours I did an activity. Slept 8 hours - fill in 1/3 of energy pie ... drive 30 minutes each way to practice, fill in another hour of time. Lift weights, massage - all took up the pie. After he had finished, we both looked down and I had 25 1/2 hours filled. His question to me:

"Where did you steal from to stay within 24 hours? You can't expand the size of the pie - it is contstant." Of course, the area that I cheated on was sleep.

I ran in high school in the mornings 5 days a week, 2 miles, but my coach was able to get me to do it in gym class in the fall of my junior year, and study hall my senior year. I am sure their are coaches reading this post, and know this would be against school policy. I would counter and of the 478 kids that graduated my high school in 1978, only 30 had scholarships to go to college (academic or athletic), and I think of the 30, only 2 received athletic scholarships (one wrestler). It helped my parents not have to pay for college - they would have qualified for financial aid, but I don't believe that they knew how to apply. A different era.

To get up at 6am to get your 2-3 miles in, is dedication. I coached at two top 20 colleges (Chicago, Vanderbilt), and the kids thought 6.5 hours a sleep a night was enough. You can't do this - your body does not recover. I even had 1 athlete at Vanderbilt state that (neuroscience major) when your body enters REM sleep, of over 7 hours, is when you lay down new bone. Anything less does not allow your body to heal itself.

If a high school athlete was disciplined to go to bed at 9am, get 8 hours sleep, then I would let that individual run in the morning. Think of swimmers - they usually are in the pool by 6am. This is a case by case issue.

js

At my high school we were able to select an "off" hour every day. The number of off hours increased as high school went on, so that by my senior year I was able to double nearly every day because I had first and second hour off. I went to school at 10am, sometimes 11am. When I was in 8th grade, I had a "independent study" hour with the gym teacher, in which we went for a run together. If you are a high school coach and also teaching classes, is it possible to get your top runners to do an independent study with you in the morning? If you are innovative, there is always a way.

Jim Spivey wrote:

If a high school athlete was disciplined to go to bed at 9am, get 8 hours sleep, then I would let that individual run in the morning. Think of swimmers - they usually are in the pool by 6am. This is a case by case issue.

js

As one of the swimmers who got up at 5:15 to trudge to the pool for a 6am swim workout I can say as a non-morning person I didn't like it, but I did it because it was expected by both the coach and my comrades. We were always done, showered, and got breakfast (a big one at the calorie levels we were burning) and off to class by 8-8:30. Back in the pool that afternoon.

Sure cut into the social life during the season, but if you missed an a.m workout you got razzed. It built comradarie, as the a.m. workouts weren't "required", but the guys that got lanes come meet day were there and if you wanted one you were there too.

Of course, we all went through that. When i had to do two runs , the team generally got together at 6:30am. Meaning I had to wake up at 6am. We had to play jokes so it would not be as bad... Once me and my roommate (also a runner) agreed we would play a Breaking Benjamin CD the entire semester in his car. Of course it did not happen. However, we annoyed our roommate (also a runner) so many times it was hilarious. There was this part of the song we would sing together that really upset him. We even got another runner that lived a few doors down to ride with us and get in on it.

All along, I never said doubling was bad. However, if you are doing only 40-50 mpw I may reconsider that as my main way of getting mileage. Sure, if it is a speed workout day then it makes sense. However, if you want to improve your vo2 max, which will help you greatly, I suggest limiting two a days to 2-3 times per week.

Here is the quote that motivated me from Seb Coe:

You can find it in his book Running Free -can't locate my copy right now to quote from the exact page (Malmo - a little help from my friends?):

"There comes a point in your training, when you are tired all the time. Tired to go for a run ... tired when running, tired when eating. Falling asleep in the chair in front of the tube at night." I knew, that when doubling and putting in 60+ a week, that I would need naps and be tired. You have to ask yourself: Are you prepared to put your body through this period of training? For the results 5 months from now in August or September? One can quickly read this, and verbally say yes, I am ready. But when you are in the thick of it, and really tired, that's when you begin to question yourself. Is it too much? Surly, it has to be! I ran the workouts that were set out before me. Tired - falling asleep on the floor of our house, after the workout or after dinner. Waking up and not knowing where I was for a few minutes. I put myself through this for 13 years, and it was tough when you are 34 years old, hoping to run a PR in the 5k in September, and you are running in 8 degree wind chill in March. It's Hard - I only asked myself once on repeat 2 mintues intervals in this type of weather, 'what am I doing?' in all those years. You have to perservere. You have to put it in. You have to be tired, and one might say: Like being tired ... I think I knew it was what I was supposed to be doing and feeling, and the means would equal the end result.

Having said all this - injuries stink. If you are injured right now, you have to approach your time on the bike, in the pool, lifting weights, as though it was your training for an Olympic Games in the pool. The intervals you put in the water - are intervals to prepare you to run in the OG pool event. That's is the only way I was able to get through those tough times of falling of the edge of the blade and getting injured.

js

malmo wrote:

Why doubles? Because it's been tested by hundreds of thousands of runners over decades and decades, that's why. There's got to be some frequency that's ideal, and doubles are it. Why not train every other day, or every third day or even sesquidiurnally?

"Sesquidiurnally" ....... a very nice neologism.

yeah wrote:

All along, I never said doubling was bad. However, if you are doing only 40-50 mpw I may reconsider that as my main way of getting mileage. Sure, if it is a speed workout day then it makes sense. However, if you want to improve your vo2 max, which will help you greatly, I suggest limiting two a days to 2-3 times per week.

Oddly enough, when I started be a "real" distance runner I never thought much of my swimming training as being relevant. I was a sprinter and high jumper in high school that was forced to run the 2 mile because it was the last or next or the last in meets and I could get a point or two if I was done jumping. I got out if it when someone else was dinged and I was in the 4x440 (yes, 440).

When I started running distance it was mainly as a lark and let's face it, as a young male in reasonable condition I could. Youth covers a multitude of sins.

When I grew older I realized I wasn't really that good at it, and understandably that was a huge blow to my ego. I decided I actually had to do this training crap and commenced to going out the door and running. After a couple years I figured out that while going out the door and running yielded certain successes, more often it yielded what I considered failure. I decided I needed help, and sought the advise of experienced trainers.

Oddly enough, after receiving much needed advise I found out all that experience I'd had years before was in fact relevant to a different sport. You build volume in incremental steps by adding multiple workouts of varying intensity. Stress each system through weight or resistance, reaction, or exhaustion. Adapt, repeat. Fewer times you do it, fewer opportunities to adapt.

The other discovery was once you hit the geezer stage the comeback trail has more hills, ruts, etc, than you remembered in your youth. When you're gimpy, 6 miles at a pop is more of a challenge than you thought, however 3 in the morning and 3 at night is doable. Doubling up you're doing 30 when you thought you could only do 20, 40 when 30 seemed a stretch, and so on.

For sure I'm not talking elite training at my level today, but I will say from experience I've seen benefits from doubles as a national class swimmer 30 years ago, and as a gimpy old Clydesdale runner today. I certainly don't have the dedication to follow through I once did, but I can't deny the things that I did do that worked quite well.

Well clearly if your body has trouble handling 6 miles at once it is very smart and appropriate to break it up. I'm on hiatus right now but I need to running again while I can still do it. I was training a year and a half ago and got to the point where I could have run a 5k in under 18:00 but then had a freak accident that totally bruised my right foot. Disconcerting for a comeback to end like that.

I would eventually move to a few two a days when I do get higher in volume but clearly you and I are different situations.

Jim Spivey wrote:

Here is the quote that motivated me from Seb Coe:

You can find it in his book Running Free -can't locate my copy right now to quote from the exact page (Malmo - a little help from my friends?):

"There comes a point in your training, when you are tired all the time. Tired to go for a run ... tired when running, tired when eating. Falling asleep in the chair in front of the tube at night."

Sorry Jim, I don't have a very deep running library. Perhaps Hodgie-san will see this thread and help out.

Bump