Mr. Renato Canova: Could You Please Answer a Question About Effective Ways to Improve the Lactate Threshold?

I've had enough

One more thing i see that you think that Marius have the right - to have (you) a third guy coming in his defence and argumentation - without attorney - that speaks by Marius and posts for me.

For me that´s last time that I approach this Marius iIssue. I made clear my point. I have no individual interest as a person who posts a few opinions or Marius don´t have enough interest as a runner to keep on going in that issue.

I have not a special interesting in knowing Marius reasons or Marius self critics or to belong to that “elite” people that have access to Marius schedule or Marius plan.

But please your arguments or Marius arguments that´s not enough to made me change my opinion. In my opinion Marius did a big failure, and the justification that´s in a wrong training and/or wrong plan or anything else but not in bad luck or a bad day.

This my opinion I have since a long ago, I did study the problem with the data that I have acess and my knowledge and experience, and if Marius don´t want to reveal training detils I don+t want to reveal what I base my conclusion.

I understand that Marius don´t want to turn on public self critics as he don´t want to turn on public his training schedule. He is free to do as he pleases him, that’s his right and t i respect that, and that´s not what i was waiting for – Marius schedule. But i´m also free and have the right to do my comment – despite that may not pleases Marius, you or Marius fans.

The question here that´s not what are the reasons why Marius did a run "fiasco", or that ther´s an “elit group” that have the privilege to know and discuss Marius schedule. The question here is just that Marius and other and eventually you want to made ME BELIEVE and all the rest - (the other that don´t know nor the schedule neithert the self critics) that everything went wrong BECAUSE IT DON`T. You or Marius or everyone else with AT...bla..bla or planification bla...bla in that style that Marius did posts, you can´t can turn on me to more stupid or idiot that I am.

In one point you or Marius or everyone else can´t turn on me – that´s to be more stupid or idiot or ignorant that I am.

I´m enough stupid and enough ignorant and I don´t know Marius schedule or Marius self-critics BUT I KNOW ENOUGH that Marius did a big “fiasco” “failure” (because that´s public – you can´t catch that ) and that´s not just a case of bad luck ! You or Marius or anyone else can made made me believe that. So if you want to be respected you need to respect my idea.

Also I know enough to understand that kind of ideas as that one from Marius “…keeping the triggered fat metabolism, higher concentration of enzymes 5-HAD, Citrate Synthase from the winter etc)….” are only for the fool, not for me, and to catch lack of self confidence.

Thus in this issue you go with your arguments i go with mine. What would be the world if everybody belives in the same idea?

Just to made you all to remember one point. Don´t forget that.

Who called Marius to that thread and ask me to made my comment that einstein123 when i did present my own ideas about Portuguese runnes and my own experience, studies and investigations.

http://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=458338&page=28

Please fix that. So, you can accuse me to try to know what i don´t know or commeht on Marius. I simply try to be generous and bring my contribution to this post. If you don´t like, or you disagree that´s easy - don´t read it.

Antonio,

which atheletes are you coaching today?

Antonio,

one question: how would you train if you where a 5000m runner wanting to run below 15min?

Renato Canova: What do you think of the training of Marius Bakken?

How many guys who have run 13:06 or faster post here. Why

the constant criticism and fukcing insults?

"How many guys who have run 13:06 or faster post here. Why

the constant criticism and fukcing insults?"

1st: My guess is your as close as anyone?

2nd: Antonio was asked an opinion. He gave it. Blunt yes but it is his opinion and he never told you to like it. He has a very good point too if you can read past how it is presented. He never attacked Marius the person just the training. If you are affended that is the nature of this board. Don't get so emotional.

3rd: Can we please get back to talking about training and not getting caught up in this emotional crap.

Marius your input would be great. All we want is a good discussion. All I want is to learn from the people who have been or are succesful now. I personaly can't run at all but I love coaching and learning about it. fred if you don't think I belong hear because my PR is not 13:05 I really don't give a shit what you think then...

Thanks

Purdue Grad

Antonio gave his opinion. It's an opinion based on one of the strongest heritages in distance running. There have been many athletes performances not just one athlete. Training is individual but you can't argue with the success of so many athletes. We can learn from Marius and Antonio but a lot of Antonio is saying is how most of the top athletes in the world are training. Marius can be scientific but how many others have come out of the same philosophy. It would be interesting to really see how he trains and see similar things rather than the differences. My bet is there are more similar things than different. The one thing i've learned is the best programs all have very similar things but it's in the mix and the timing that produce medals. The thing is you can never get away from training the specificity of the event. To get your most you have to figure the velocities and support that with many different types of endurance support. The real key is how do you maximise your development of specific training. That is the key getting your body strengthened to longer periods of specific training. That's why you have to always have the velocities in place. Your nervous system is just as important as your aerobic system. The marathon is extending how long you can maintain race pace and the 5k is buffering lactate at very high levels of velocity. The portuguese system understands this and although it looks very simple it is rooted in very high levels of science. Don't forget your nervous system. Athletes always forget that the muscles and nervous system propel the body.

Who are you? Who do you coach?

Yes I will give Geb the nod in the marathon if he runs 2-04 or faster !

great thread

I have been attending Marius Bakken's site for several years, and then later also posting on this one at Letsrun.

Also I am older than Antonio and have been running, many events and competitions, all my life.

I know Antonio Cabral and his valuable contributions from Marius' site and now also from this one. However I have never discussed opinions with him or anyone about Marius' training and didn't see much of his thoughts of that training until reading this messages here today.

Regardless of these things, I have and have long had much the same opinion regarding the training of Marius.

Of course Marius is a very talented and also a very smart and generous runner. However I have no interest in Marius's training. I think his training is totally down the wrong path, not necessarily for overall conditioning, but for racing, and also for reaching his peaks and top performances at the right events and the right times of year. I have long felt this way, from the comments and also the results of Marius, and nothing to do with Antonio. However, as Antonio has said, these things are very easy to see!

It is telling that Marius is secretive with his training, and also with the specifics of his training. I think this causes no problems or interest of anyone else, but however may problems for Marius, as it protects his predilection from any scrutiny, introspection, or change that would otherwise help him to see the wrong directions, and also better directions to revise and to change.

When you look at the very best coaches in the world, such as Renato Canova, and also I consider Antonio Cabral to be one the very best coaches -- who will not settle for going down a wrong path but instead speaks his mind FOR THE BENEFITS OF THE RUNNER and all runners -- you will see these coaches have developed by sharing and also continue to generously SHARE their training and ideas with others, with very few if any limitations.

Also notice in Ethiopia, with Kostre, Tulu, Geb and Beleke et al, their training is shared openly through their country, and not hidden from one person to another.

I disagree with the statement that Marius' and El G's training are similar. In the case of El G it is his race specific practice that he works on constantly and continuously, and only any LT or whatever as a support for that BUT not as the prime center of his training. It is only a background support.

I wish Marius all the best with his running and would love to see him accomplish great things. Also I am thankful for his generousity with his site and his helpfulness to the rest of us.

The posts and messages by Antonio are amazing. I esteem this man greatly. We are so lucky that he has the interest and motivation to be here and to share his insights so willingly with the rest of us.

Antonio....

As far as Marius's race goes...shit happens. The Olympics is not a time trial nor a workout where everything is precise. From crazy pacing and surging to getting boxed in and bumped. Things can happen in a race that knock you down. A runner who has run 13:06 could easily have a bad day, get caught up following a slow pace, get boxed in, etc and end up running 13:36. Every Olympics has many runners who do not perform up to their potential because of such matters. As I said...shit happens. You have no right to be so critical of Marius.

"shit" could have happened to Rui Silva, but it didn't.

"shit" could have happened to Carlos Lopes, but it didn't.

Antonio is proud of the "Portuguese System" and I don't blame him.

I don't think anyone here has the credentials to criticize Mr. Cabral or Marius just because of one race or Mr. Cabral's stated opinion. I'm interested in what both parties have to say, maybe there is something to be learned in this thread, but lets not drive them off the boards.

Incoming great points it is in the mix that seperates everthing. Marius is doing a good job with himself but i would not say that his way was for more than himself.

" The Olympics is not a time trial nor a workout where everything is precise. From crazy pacing and surging to getting boxed in and bumped. Things can happen in a race that knock you down."

Yes and your training must incorperate things so you can handle this. If it doesn't your body floods with lactate and your done ...

Antonio Cabral,

Is there a problem with mixing up the different paces in one workout?

An example would be starting off slower than race pace, then repeats at race pace, then finish off with repeats faster than race pace.

In my opinion, it seems more logical to train all systems in one workout, however, I would like your opinion, or anyone else here who can answer.

So when is Renato coming back?