Johns Hopkins now predicts 60,000 American COVID-19 deaths

Yes, and there is no season. This seems to be the key point that many who downplay its wrath prefer to overlook. I imagine that if these folks were facing Polio back in the day that they would have had a much different perspective.

Allen53 wrote:

Remember "we" had no say in any of this. "They"- the experts and their faithful political servants made all of these decisions for us.

Do not forget who is responsible for this- oh and the $6 trillion that disappeared into the Wall St. suckerfish- don't talk about that.

I'm still trying to figure out the draconian measures that the government put in place. I live in Colorado, and there has been a lot of advice, and a few businesses mandated to close down, or at least change their normal business, but really not a lot of change.

I go to the grocery store. I choose to wear a mask, and have been for the since the week of St. Patrick's Day. Mostly to protect others, because my girlfriend is a health care provider, so it's possible I've been exposed when she comes home from work every night.

However, there are several people at the grocery store shopping as normal, with no masks.

I'm still getting takeout from restaurants. I still work everyday. At work, people are still socializing normally, although a lot of people have voluntarily chosen to work from home. I'm the only one that wears a mask at work that I've seen.

So, I think "we" have had a lot of say in how we have responded to the virus. Literally the only things I can't do right now are eat inside a restaurant, go see a movie, go to a concert, or go to a sporting event. I just don't see any of those things as a big deal.

I know some states have harder lockdowns, but I would guess 80% of the states have similar or even more relaxed rules to what we're doing in Colorado.

It's kind of funny, because I see two types of overreaction on this board. #1 are people that are overreacting to the virus. The people I think you're criticizing. But you, in my opinion, are also overreacting. To the government's response.

Oh no, life is mildly different for a few months while we study and characterize a new disease and figure out what, if anything, we can do to slow the spread and help treat people. What a tragedy.

I have three main problems with the response of the government.

1) The government’s response has put millions of people out of work and has the probability of plunging us into a recession and the possibility of plunging us into a Great Depression. The social instability that a Great Depression would result in would dwarf any kind of social instability that would have occurred from COVID-19 alone. We also spent two + trillion in stimulus over night (we printed paper).

2) This was all done based on projections, not the reality on the ground. What shut down the United States wasn’t what the virus was actually doing but what experts thought it COULD do. Why does this matter? Well it sets a precedent and a game plan for future government administrations to put in place even more draconian measures for other “social health emergencies”. Global warming is an example. Some experts say it will cost the lives of hundreds of millions of people. If we lockdown the country for the lives of a few thousand people we should absolutely do it for a few million people.

3) People are getting ticketed for being “too close” together. A father got arrested for playing tee ball with his daughter at an empty park. The mayor of Chicago is trying to tell her citizens what we should be doing outside and a pastor was put into prison for holding a church service (remember freedom of religion). All these rights we as Americans have taken for granted for over 200 years have basically been thrown out the window in a frenzy of fear in the period of one month-very scary.

So you say life is “mildly different” like the government is imposing minor inconveniences on us. I argue we have just fundamentally changed the moral landscape and character of the United States in a period of two months.

1) Those layoffs were not solely the action of the government. Let's pretend the government did nothing. Do you think as the numbers started to climb, people would still be going to restaurants, sporting events, etc? The NBA wasn't shut down by the government, for example. It was shut down by the NBA. Airlines are still operating. People are choosing not to fly. As of March 24th (those were the latest numbers I could find) Southwest Airlines is still operating 80% of their routes.

1b) Stimulus. That was an economic response to an economic problem. Probably an over-response in my opinion, but I do like that a lot of the aid is being offered as loans. They should have a net zero cost over the long-term.

2) Kind of feeds into 1b. Yes, there was some projection involved in moving on the stimulus. But now we are seeing the reality of massive unemployment and small businesses needing money. That is not a projection. It's a reality.

3) The t-ball guy got cuffed for 10 minutes and released, and then apologized to by the city and the police force. I wasn't there, but I can almost guarantee he was an a-hole to the police when they tried to talk to him. Did they maybe infringe on his rights by asking him to identify himself? Maybe. The fact that he chose to take a stand on that, instead of just providing his ID is the reason he ended up in handcuffs for 10 minutes. My argument is that this is a difficult time for everyone, even police. A little extra cooperation would have avoided the whole thing, but I do understand people that take personal privacy and police-overreach very seriously, and they probably think it was justified. Fine. And it all ended up ok in the end. You bring up freedom of religion. Freedom of religion has nothing to do with being able to hold a massive church service. Especially if it doesn't discriminate against a particular religion. If they said only Muslims couldn't meet for religious services, that would be different.

I stand by the statement that this is "mildly different" and temporary. At the same time, I do think it's your right to monitor it, and be cautious about it, and to demand that it's temporary and not excessive. My point was that I think some people are overreacting and not being honest about it.

For example, the falsehoods in your post:

I don't see any infringement on our freedom of religion.

I don't think the economic impact is totally or even primarily being caused by government intervention.

I do think a stimulus package would be rolled out if we saw skyrocketing unemployment, businesses shutting down, and a 20%+ drop in the market over a month, regardless of the cause.

[quote]UsedToBeKnowItAll wrote:

[quote]energeticlotuseater wrote:

I have three main problems with the response of the government.

1) Those layoffs were not solely the action of the government. Let's pretend the government did nothing. Do you think as the numbers started to climb, people would still be going to restaurants, sporting events, etc? The NBA wasn't shut down by the government, for example. It was shut down by the NBA. Airlines are still operating. People are choosing not to fly. As of March 24th (those were the latest numbers I could find) Southwest Airlines is still operating 80% of their routes.

You think there is a distinction between the Oligarchs who own the NBA and the airlines and the Oligarchs who own the Government. That's just silly

1b) Stimulus. That was an economic response to an economic problem. Probably an over-response in my opinion, but I do like that a lot of the aid is being offered as loans. They should have a net zero cost over the long-term.

The vast majority of the aid is going to those afore mentioned oligarchs.

2) Kind of feeds into 1b. Yes, there was some projection involved in moving on the stimulus. But now we are seeing the reality of massive unemployment and small businesses needing money. That is not a projection. It's a reality.

Much of the small business will no longer exist due to the govt lockdown and hundreds of millions will be pushed way further into debt to the uber rich that are getting most of the stimulus $$

3) The t-ball guy got cuffed for 10 minutes and released, and then apologized to by the city and the police force. I wasn't there, but I can almost guarantee he was an a-hole to the police when they tried to talk to him. Did they maybe infringe on his rights by asking him to identify himself? Maybe. The fact that he chose to take a stand on that, instead of just providing his ID is the reason he ended up in handcuffs for 10 minutes. My argument is that this is a difficult time for everyone, even police. A little extra cooperation would have avoided the whole thing, but I do understand people that take personal privacy and police-overreach very seriously, and they probably think it was justified. Fine. And it all ended up ok in the end. You bring up freedom of religion. Freedom of religion has nothing to do with being able to hold a massive church service. Especially if it doesn't discriminate against a particular religion. If they said only Muslims couldn't meet for religious services, that would be different.

Siding with the forces of oppression over your fellow citizens. Pathetic

I would beg to differ. The 1st Ammendment guarantees the religous right of peaceful assembly. Isn't there some pastors cited/arrested for holding services in their church? There's also been 14th Ammendment violations when the governor of Rhode Island order the the stop & detainment of New York licensed vehicles coming across the border. The govenor of Texas had also authorized the stop & detainment of Louisiana licensed vehicles at the border - though I haven't heard if the practice has been stopped like it did in RI when the governor was called out on it by Cuomo.

☝️ What amazes me is this is the United States of America with the Constitution & Bill of Rights, and yet so many citizens are paralyzed in so much fear that they're oblivious (or don't care) that our rights are being trampled on by government. And where's the ACLU in all of this?...sleeping on the job or what?!?

Renato Corona wrote:

real info wrote:

This is not correct. At this point we have been able to watch the progress of coronavirus in China, Korea, Taiwan, and other countries, and differences in behavior have made a huge difference in what the curve looks like in each one. In the U.S., we can see the effects of starting social distancing start to show up around 10 days later in the number of new cases.

Sorry friend, this is not correct. We haven't been able to "watch the progress of coronavirus in China" etc etc. We've been presented with unreliable and frankly implausible data, both from abroad and locally. And even if we had pristine data we'd only have correlation, not the causation you seem to be leaping to with no basis whatsoever.

If you're going to be condescending, that's fine, but at least either _be_ smarter or _sound_ smarter.

Ah, so you explain away the data by appealing to a global conspiracy. Thank you for sorting yourself into the appropriate category of lunatic.

And to be clear, I am not your friend, and after this never will be. Your paranoid conspiracy theories will get people killed.

Are the mass graves in New York just the normal response to a regular flu outbreak?

real info wrote:

[

Ah, so you explain away the data by appealing to a global conspiracy. Thank you for sorting yourself into the appropriate category of lunatic.

And to be clear, I am not your friend, and after this never will be. Your paranoid conspiracy theories will get people killed.

Wow. You don't think there is a global elite conspiring to push their agenda?

How can anyone in the year 2020 still be so ignorant?

AOL Lawyer wrote:

Are the mass graves in New York just the normal response to a regular flu outbreak?

There are no special mass graves for Covid-19 in NY.

AOL Lawyer wrote:

Are the mass graves in New York just the normal response to a regular flu outbreak?

Assuming these massgrave digging stories are true it shows a criminal mismanagement of whoever should be charged in finding proper grave sites for the victims. New York is a huge state with a lot of empty space (New York isn’t all Manhattan). You’re telling me they have to start digging mass graves for an extra 7,000 people dead over the period of a month? You’re telling me there are no plots of land where a graveyard could be built or empty plots in existing grave yards in the entire state of New York?

I call BS on the story or, if the story is true, a criminal mismanagement of the situation by whoever should be charged in finding proper grave sites.

Renato Corona wrote:

Sorry friend, this is not correct. We haven't been able to "watch the progress of coronavirus in China" etc etc. We've been presented with unreliable and frankly implausible data, both from abroad and locally. And even if we had pristine data we'd only have correlation, not the causation you seem to be leaping to with no basis whatsoever.

If you're going to be condescending, that's fine, but at least either _be_ smarter or _sound_ smarter.

Tactically ignore Taiwan and South Korea. Easy to be right when you ignore all evidence to the contrary.

Moron

Can someone update me on the current party line?

Are we still discussing over/under 10,000 US cases @Bad Wigins?

What about over or under 10,000 deaths?

Whew I can't keep up those goalposts are VERY far in the distance.

Giles Corey wrote:

Wow. You don't think there is a global elite conspiring to push their agenda?

How can anyone in the year 2020 still be so ignorant?

The NWO made up coronavirus to put up 5G towers.

Thankfully Giles is here to keep us informed.

Sorry all, I try to get all my trolling in in small batches now.

These guys make it pretty easy.

160,000 people will die in New York this year. But some people see thousands dying and think that is a large number. So they would need 160,000 for the year and they are at 70,000 right now but don't have sufficient graves. Most of us can do math when we have the facts but the media deals in emotions more than facts.

Quarantines are a traditional and necessary remedy for epidemics. The Founding Fathers believed the same thing.

"In ports in North America, quarantine was introduced during the same decade that attempts were being made to control yellow fever, which first appeared in New York and Boston in 1688 and 1691, respectively (18). In some colonies, the fear of smallpox outbreaks, which coincided with the arrival of ships, induced health authorities to order mandatory home isolation of persons with smallpox (19), even though another controversial strategy, inoculation, was being used to protect against the disease. In the United States, quarantine legislation, which until 1796 was the responsibility of states, was implemented in port cities threatened by yellow fever from the West Indies (18). "

Emerg Infect Dis. 2013 Feb; 19(2): 254–259.

doi: 10.3201/eid1902.120312

PMCID: PMC3559034

PMID: 23343512

Lessons from the History of Quarantine, from Plague to Influenza A

Eugenia Tognotti

The U.S. is now over 20,000 deaths and has been hitting right around 2,000 deaths per day (=730,000 per year) for a few days now. It's quite likely now to hit 60,000 deaths by the end of this month, with no change over the average of the next twenty days, and then if it averages 50-60% of the current total in May, similar to Italy and Spain in the past week, it would hit 90-100,000 by the end of May. I don't see how it will stop completely there either.

I'm not a constitutional lawyer, but the quick blurb I found on peaceful assembly was it gave people "the right of the people peaceably to assemble for the purpose of petitioning Congress for a redress of grievances, or for anything else connected with the powers or duties of the National Government, is an attribute of national citizenship, and, as such, under protection of, and guaranteed by, the United States."

That doesn't sound anything like a right to hold an Easter service. Unless your Easter service is meant to petition Congress for a redress of grievances.

Harambe wrote:

Giles Corey wrote:

Wow. You don't think there is a global elite conspiring to push their agenda?

How can anyone in the year 2020 still be so ignorant?

The NWO made up coronavirus to put up 5G towers.

Thankfully Giles is here to keep us informed.

Sorry all, I try to get all my trolling in in small batches now.

These guys make it pretty easy.

Ah. The pathetic strawman approach from someone unable to argue the facts.

R U unaware that the elites have used Covid to put trillions of $$ into their own pockets? To destroy many small businesses?

I can't keep you informed as you are locked into the worldview implanted into you by the establishment. No reality, no amount of facts and common sense will ever liberate you