Is heat really a poor mans altitude?

moran central wrote:

I am relaxed. Just poining out the stupidity of someome linking to absracts as though it's actually helpful to the discussion and then wondering why we don't read them?

Seriously, dude. Work on your anger issues. I can't link to the full article....because the full article isn't available for free. If the abstract isn't good enough for you, (1) go ahead and find the full article for yourself (I don't really care about your ignorance, so this is your duty), (2) continue to listen to the uninformed speculations by randos on LR, or (3) I really don't care. There, horse, is the water. Drink of it or don't. It makes no difference to me.

FinnJ wrote:

Since it is now believed that people get almost the same effect from training in heat as both living and racing at altitude

Who is believing that? It doesn't make any sense. Altitude running is about having less oxygen. Running in heat is about cooling your body enough. Not the same effect at all.

Hella moroon wrote:

moran central wrote:

I am relaxed. Just poining out the stupidity of someome linking to absracts as though it's actually helpful to the discussion and then wondering why we don't read them?

Seriously, dude. Work on your anger issues. I can't link to the full article....because the full article isn't available for free. If the abstract isn't good enough for you, (1) go ahead and find the full article for yourself (I don't really care about your ignorance, so this is your duty), (2) continue to listen to the uninformed speculations by randos on LR, or (3) I really don't care. There, horse, is the water. Drink of it or don't. It makes no difference to me.

Well I read the full article and it's mostly about heat adaption. So the question remains open. And you might want to consider why?

And I should tell you that you aren't the intellectually superior being you believe you are. And that I don't have anger issues, but you have a degree of hubris that needs to be addressed.

Forest Gump here wrote:

FinnJ wrote:

Since it is now believed that people get almost the same effect from training in heat as both living and racing at altitude

Who is believing that? It doesn't make any sense. Altitude running is about having less oxygen. Running in heat is about cooling your body enough. Not the same effect at all.

But most people believe that altitude training increases oxygen uptake at sea level. Which is contentious.

And both types of training should be viewed as potential ways of improving efficiency. That is the hypothesis to test.

Forest Gump here wrote:

FinnJ wrote:

Since it is now believed that people get almost the same effect from training in heat as both living and racing at altitude

Who is believing that? It doesn't make any sense. Altitude running is about having less oxygen. Running in heat is about cooling your body enough. Not the same effect at all.

I'm mostly over my head on this but no matter. In Bernd Heinrich's "Why We Run" he seems to attribute ALL endurance activity as a matter of throwing off heat. Whether you're talking about birds flying long distances or people running long distances. Oxygen use is one way to throw off heat and the more heat you need to throw off the more oxygen you'll use and that oxygen will then be unavailable for running.

moran central wrote:

Hella moroon wrote:

Seriously, dude. Work on your anger issues. I can't link to the full article....because the full article isn't available for free. If the abstract isn't good enough for you, (1) go ahead and find the full article for yourself (I don't really care about your ignorance, so this is your duty), (2) continue to listen to the uninformed speculations by randos on LR, or (3) I really don't care. There, horse, is the water. Drink of it or don't. It makes no difference to me.

Well I read the full article and it's mostly about heat adaption. So the question remains open. And you might want to consider why?

And I should tell you that you aren't the intellectually superior being you believe you are. And that I don't have anger issues, but you have a degree of hubris that needs to be addressed.

Did you see the section on cool weather? All may not be understood on how heat adaptations translate to advantages in cooler weather, but there is a fair amount of evidence that it occurs (as mentioned in that section). Your other claims about me (and you) are ridiculous so I'll just leave it at that.

Here's another good article suggesting heat acclimation improves performance in ideal conditions.

Only if you like it.... I hate the heat so I try to avoid it!

moran central wrote:

I am relaxed. Just poining out the stupidity of someome linking to absracts as though it's actually helpful to the discussion and then wondering why we don't read them?

I'll tell you what, sport: if you're a really good boy today and you eat all your vegetables with dinner and you don't wet the bed again tonight, tomorrow I'll take you to get your very own library card so you can access all this information for yourself. You'll be just like a big boy!

oops! wrote:

are you suggesting that only rich people live at altitude? kind of jumped the shark with that comment

Saying, "jumped the shark," has jumped the shark.

Some lunatic wrote:

oops! wrote:

are you suggesting that only rich people live at altitude? kind of jumped the shark with that comment

I think you need to watch Happy Days again.

yes

Since I think that nobody has mentioned this so far I’ll throw it out there. Heat (air temperature) as well as air pressure and humidity affect air density. Pilots maybe pay attention to this (I don’t know any), if you drag race cars (normally aspirated) at altitude on a hot day you know that your car won’t make as much horsepower because there just isn’t enough air.

When I raced bicycles 30 years ago or so I had this in mind so I looked at the density altitude charts that a pilot might use. If I read it correctly, it said that at 4000 ft and 100 degrees F the air density would be about the same as the air density at 7000 or 8000 ft and 50 degrees F. I did much of my threshold work on a ciclopista (cycling track) right after the sun went down and the air temperature was 100 or so. I want to think that this was the same as training at altitude, but maybe not. I’ll put my vote for the heat (air temperature) is the poor man’s (which I am) altitude.

If heat training would be so effective, why are the best distance runners in the world from Kenya and Ethopia? Those countries have no real summers, and in general mild temperatures throughout the whole year.

Many elites seem to train in the morning and evening, when they could very well train at noon and very early/late to get maximum benefit from the noon heat if it was true.

It doesn't make much sense why slower miles and slower repeats in workouts would make someone a better runner in good conditions. You get too far away from your actual race pace if you train in 90F in the blazing noon sun.

It is true that some elites train in sweats and with lots of clothing on purpose, but they do it to simulate hot races and to work on their cooling system for summer races.

Say you do a standard 7x1k workout in 3:00/k as a 14:30 5k guy in 65F. In 90F and high humidity, you can only do the reps in 3:15/k. Your turnover will be slower, you recruit less muscle fibers. Your heart works hard to cool down the body and can't supply the oxygen to the legs to run your usual 3:00/k pace. So better do the 7x1k in the morning or evening but not at noon to maximize training benefit.

As others already say , two are two different things . I like run in heat and my pb in 10k and shorter race are made in the summer with 30° celsius. To train in the heat is an art, of course we need to choose early morning (better) or late in the evening for quality workout. To avoid absolutely the hottest hours, cos it can be dangerous, except maybe for some easy run.

Yesterday at 7 in the evening I did a 6x1000 rec 2' and after the 3rd repetitions my body temperature was very hot , no singlet of course , and maximum sweat productions, it was under trees but 33° celsius. Now here are the first days of heat

so next time I know that the body will adapt and i will feel more "confortable" running at Vo2 max / LT in that heat.

For the same reason another workout that is harder is the long run. doing 30 KM with 30° is all another story that do it with 15°. So for me no need to push the body to do long run more than 2 hours with extreme heat condition, I usually stay on 20

25 km and then I know when temperature goes down a little it will be easy to do a 30km or more.

About the speed I must say that I found it easier to make speed workout in the summer heat than in cold winter, is like my muscles works better.

Anyway in the summer heat pushing too hard is not a good idea, we need to recover well every workout, is more easier to go in overtraining, or chronic fatigue state, it happens easily in the summer, maybe in a month I do 3 races with good results than the next month all in a once i feel with zero energy. Stop , finish so I need good recover to be again in good shape

Density altitude for flying is an interesting comparison.

Heat and altitude effects the plane engine as it effects the runner.

But my gut feel is that the issues with flying and running are not the same.

https://www.aopa.org/training-and-safety/active-pilots/safety-and-technique/weather/density-altitude

The reason we run faster in the fall is because the summer heat slows us down lessening the chance of injury.

Old thread on Durden, Chris Clark, the Japanese, Ahmed Salah, John Treacy, Ron Daws, Ndereba and Kenyans training in sweats:

https://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=535072