Is heat really a poor mans altitude?

Heat no. Humidity yes

are you suggesting that only rich people live at altitude? kind of jumped the shark with that comment

oops! wrote:

are you suggesting that only rich people live at altitude? kind of jumped the shark with that comment

I think you need to watch Happy Days again.

Heat and humidity are extra load. Just like altitude, hill, wind, uneven surface, etc.

Everything else (pace, distance, surface) remains the same, it's harder with heat. But you can also make the overall hardness similar by reducing pace or distance.

I'm talking just about energetic (cardio/muscle) load. There is of course an adaptation unique to each type of load. Running in the heat will make you used to racing in the heat (like the cross the Sahara ultra or Singapore marathon), and not racing in high altitude (although there should be some crossing over for generic energetic training).

Although I don't enjoy training in the heat and humidity, it definitely pays dividends in the fall.

Ill Mitch wrote:

Although I don't enjoy training in the heat and humidity, it definitely pays dividends in the fall.

Agree.

I find Yuki's previously made point interesting, that the heat and humidity in Japan in the summer wasn't allowing him to do the training he wanted (as a non-pro). There's definitely something in this. But there's also something in suffering through a hot and humid summer and then running a fall marathon in better conditions, where those adaptations can be cashed in.

midday kinda guy wrote:

Is there any benefit to running in the middle of the day when it is hottest as opposed to running at night when it's cooler?

I was asking Peter Snell about this many years ago. He told me that the physiological systems that come into play when running at altitude are "completely different" from the ones that come into play when running in heat and humidity. On the other hand, in 1968 at the Tahoe Trials, Jack Bacheler came out of essentially nowhere to make the team at 5,000 meters and went onto be the only American to qualify for the final, though he was really sick on the day of the race and didn't run.

At the time he was in grad school in Gainesville and later said that he thought the reason he'd run well at altitude, he did not spend much, if any, time training there, was because he'd been running in the heat and humidity in Florida in his prep.

When I lived in the DC area and trained through the heat and humidity in the summer I ALWAYS felt so much fresher and stronger when the weather broke. I also had a time when I lived in Boulder specifically for the altitude and did not get that same feeling of feeling fresher and stronger when I came back to lower altitudes.

When I ran my 1:39 half last fall, I had trained in a brutal CBus summer.

My long runs were at 8:20 pace if that, and once I bonked doing 7 miles in 64 at 90'F and had to stop and sit at a tree for 10 mins. to recover.

But come early Sept. I was hitting 7 miles in 53 without trouble, then was on pace for sub-1:40. I would have gone 1:38 or even sub-1:38 instead of 1:39:02 had I not stopped at the bathroom (60-80 second loss).

Nope. Different mechanism.

The sources of cardiovascular stress are different. When you run at altitude, the partial pressure of oxygen is low, forcing your body to adapt to become better at transporting oxygen, primarily by increasing the production of red blood cells. This adaptation makes you better at running.

When you run in the heat, blood is being circulated to the surface of your skin for thermoregulation. Basically, your circulatory system works like a radiator, carrying heat from your muscles out to the surface where it can dissipate. Your heart has to work harder to move more blood so that this can happen, but as far as I know there is no stimulus actually forcing your body to become significantly better at carrying oxygen.

Since it is now believed that people get almost the same effect from training in heat as both living and racing at altitude

FinnJ wrote:

Since it is now believed that people get almost the same effect from training in heat as both living and racing at altitude

Believed by who? Can you provide a source for this?

source? wrote:

FinnJ wrote:

Since it is now believed that people get almost the same effect from training in heat as both living and racing at altitude

Believed by who? Can you provide a source for this?

There are a number of indexed peer-reviewed studies on this topic. Just a few:

midday kinda guy wrote:

Is there any benefit to running in the middle of the day when it is hottest as opposed to running at night when it's cooler?

No, other than some mental benefit which is maxed out after a couple workouts. Train in the morning or evening when it's cooler. The benefits from altitude come from living there 24/7, not specifically training in tough conditions.

To clarify, my above post was about the benefits of heat training, not any idea of equivalence with altitude training, which...yeah, I doubt such comparisons are meaningful or useful.

source? wrote:

FinnJ wrote:

Since it is now believed that people get almost the same effect from training in heat as both living and racing at altitude

Believed by who? Can you provide a source for this?

Not "the same." There is some very good research indicating that training in the heat can improve cool weather performance and increase VO2max. One of the studies was on rowers, the other on cyclists. There may have been others. Heat training definitely increases blood plasma, which could help performance, but there are likely other mechanisms at work that aren't yet understood.

The current protocols call for doing one's second, easy run of the day in brutally hot and humid conditions without water because dehydration might be necessary to get the effect.

If you're a poor man, instead of running in heat or at altitude, you should focus on getting a job. Once you've done that and you aren't a poor man anymore, you can go run at altitude all you want and stop worrying about some discount rate alternative.

I honestly would be intrigued by an actual scientific take on this. I suffer through summer training like many others and things usually start clicking in the fall when things cool off. but how much of this is just having better weather? have gains been made over the summer or have I lost a step and need to get it back once I can workout at the same level.

example: 10 x 1km in cool weather @ 3:20 vs. maybe 3:30s in the summer in tough conditions. am I making any gains in the summer hitting slower times with the same kind of heart rate? is it a wash because it sort of is like altitude training? there is a conversion if I were to have done the same workout in better weather. I just wonder about the negative impacts. my long runs are worse in warmer weather. the body gets a little more run down. I assume it would just be best to train in 40-60 year round. it's hard to know if you're improving in the summer and/or putting yourself in a hole by pushing too hard.

oops! wrote:

are you suggesting that only rich people live at altitude? kind of jumped the shark with that comment

Butchering the use of "jumped the shark" is a new letsrun meme. Thanks Rojo!