Guardian article on Ethiopian Training Philosophy

Subway Surfers wrote:

But we have seen numerous busts of Ethiopians running for Turkey, Spain and other European countries but a surprisingly low level of domestic Ethiopians, though they are still training together. Then we hear that the testing is near zilch, this explains it.

I wouldn't call 4 people "numerous", but maybe I'm forgetting some?

Sand Dunes wrote:

Sand Dunes wrote:

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2017/aug/04/doping-hotspot-ethiopia-drug-testing-epo

I'm pretty sure if Americans could buy EPO over the counter we too would be pretty dominant in distance running . . .

Americans never dope. They are the only pure distance runners in the world..............................

spade detector wrote:

Not just Kenya...but also Ethiopia wrote:

So does Ethiopia, IMO.

Were you aware of the big doping ring broken up in Spain last June where Ethiopia had their own branch based out of Madrid? One of the athletes arrested was Gizaw Bekele. I wish more details were made available because this is Big....real Big.

https://www.efe.com/efe/english/sports/spanish-police-arrest-6-athletes-on-suspicion-of-doping-bust-dealing-ring/50000266-3657078http://www.sportsintegrityinitiative.com/spanish-police-arrest-six-athletes-anti-doping-operation/

I agree that testing it poor and that doping meds would be easy to come by in Ethiopia, but I just haven't seen enough busts of their athletes to think it is as big of a problem as it is in Kenya. I find it odd when people lump the two countries together.

Rekrunner "lumped" the two countries together for purposes of statistical analysis in his "A closer look at EPO-era performances" thread:

spade detector wrote:

Subway Surfers wrote:

But we have seen numerous busts of Ethiopians running for Turkey, Spain and other European countries but a surprisingly low level of domestic Ethiopians, though they are still training together. Then we hear that the testing is near zilch, this explains it.

I wouldn't call 4 people "numerous", but maybe I'm forgetting some?

Surely there's more than 4 foreign Ethiopians caught doping or likely doping on the Fancy Bears list? Abeba Aregawi, beezelbub (Spain), Hassan (likely), Homiyu Tesfaye (likely), 5 likely doping Ethiopians, numerous Ethiopian Turks busted like Evan Abeylegesse. There was he Sabadell incident and Dibaba was in the room next door. Jama held his training camps in Ethiopia, I think at Bekele's track (while holding Mo's stopwatch). Somebody needs to link Seppelt's visit to Ethiopia on here.

funny thoughts wrote:

Americans never dope. They are the only pure distance runners in the world..............................

Racist troll! The Brits are the pure ones. Well at least us white ones.

funny thoughts wrote:

Sand Dunes wrote:

I'm pretty sure if Americans could buy EPO over the counter we too would be pretty dominant in distance running . . .

Americans never dope. They are the only pure distance runners in the world..............................

LMAO, American distance runners were doping even back in the 70s (read frank shorter's autobiography he talks about talking to a 1500m runner at the trials talking about how great jucing is).

Magic Elixir/Magic Jelly Beans Cathal Lombard:https://www.iaaf.org/athletes/ireland/cathal-lombard-138431 Progression tab. 14:27 5k scrub to 13:19 in 3 years 30:35 10k scrub (almost as slow as me) to 27:33 < 2 years. Cathal just needed magic jelly beans so that he could believe in himself to shave 3 minutes off of his 10K PR.

lklkj wrote:

You guys think EPO is a magic elixir.

Why don't you get on it, and get back to us when you make the Trials.

Oh, right, it won't happen, because EPO is as close to a placebo as 4% is to 4% improvement.

Angry Willy wrote:

Magic Elixir/Magic Jelly Beans

Cathal Lombard:

https://www.iaaf.org/athletes/ireland/cathal-lombard-138431

Progression tab.

14:27 5k scrub to 13:19 in 3 years

30:35 10k scrub (almost as slow as me) to 27:33 < 2 years.

Cathal just needed magic jelly beans so that he could believe in himself to shave 3 minutes off of his 10K PR.

lklkj wrote:

You guys think EPO is a magic elixir.

Why don't you get on it, and get back to us when you make the Trials.

Oh, right, it won't happen, because EPO is as close to a placebo as 4% is to 4% improvement.

Exactly, a panorama journalist increased his vo2max from 58 to 63 through microdosing over 3 months without violating the passport, just imagine if he went the full chicken vindaloo?

Angry Willy wrote:

Magic Elixir/Magic Jelly Beans

Cathal Lombard:

https://www.iaaf.org/athletes/ireland/cathal-lombard-138431

Progression tab.

14:27 5k scrub to 13:19 in 3 years

30:35 10k scrub (almost as slow as me) to 27:33 < 2 years.

Cathal just needed magic jelly beans so that he could believe in himself to shave 3 minutes off of his 10K PR.

One of highest responders I've ever seen with rocket fuel. Lol.Here's a story on him after he got caught:

I guess it depends highly on the subject matter. Looks like he was talking about testing and access to doping and drug busts, while I looked at performance progress from 1990. I actually first lumped all athletes, Kenyans, Ethiopians, Europeans, Americans, Australians, together, when looking at performance and coming up with global measures. I also broke these results down into distinctions regions, one of which was East Africa, which included Kenya and Ethiopia, and also countries like Somalia, Eritrea, and Uganda. For my purpose -- to show the relatively poor quality and quantity of progress of all non-Africans worldwide, for the duration of the entire EPO-era, breaking out Kenya and Ethiopia separately would add no value -- the non-Africans would still fall far behind in terms of both quality and quantity. If this breakdown doesn't make sense, everyone knows my method, and can make refinements.

Everyone's looking for an edge wrote:

spade detector wrote:

I agree that testing it poor and that doping meds would be easy to come by in Ethiopia, but I just haven't seen enough busts of their athletes to think it is as big of a problem as it is in Kenya. I find it odd when people lump the two countries together.

Rekrunner "lumped" the two countries together for purposes of statistical analysis in his "A closer look at EPO-era performances" thread:

rekrunner wrote:

I guess it depends highly on the subject matter. Looks like he was talking about testing and access to doping and drug busts, while I looked at performance progress from 1990.

I actually first lumped all athletes, Kenyans, Ethiopians, Europeans, Americans, Australians, together, when looking at performance and coming up with global measures.

I also broke these results down into distinctions regions, one of which was East Africa, which included Kenya and Ethiopia, and also countries like Somalia, Eritrea, and Uganda.

For my purpose -- to show the relatively poor quality and quantity of progress of all non-Africans worldwide, for the duration of the entire EPO-era, breaking out Kenya and Ethiopia separately would add no value -- the non-Africans would still fall far behind in terms of both quality and quantity.

If this breakdown doesn't make sense, everyone knows my method, and can make refinements.

Yeah...it doesn't make any sense. And Subway already made one "refinement" when he took the top 5 "North African" 5000 times post-90 and compared them to the top 5 "North African" 5000 pre-90s, which included the fastest time in that group of highly suspicious Aouita (12:58). The N. Africans were running over *3%* faster than post-90 group which included more than likely a tainted doped time by Aouita!

Spain also improved significantly in all events post-90 vs pre-90s. Out of nowhere they put themselves on the World stage in the marathon by winning 3 gold & 1 silver World Championship medals in the 90s! Where were the top Spanish marathoners prior to 1990? (they did have WC marathon competition back then, didn't they?). And Spain did all this with a much lower talent pool than the E. Africans where super fast runners come a dime a dozen because they don't have to compete with talent pursuing soccer & cycling like in Espana!

Subway Surfers wrote:

spade detector wrote:

I wouldn't call 4 people "numerous", but maybe I'm forgetting some?

Surely there's more than 4 foreign Ethiopians caught doping or likely doping on the Fancy Bears list? Abeba Aregawi, beezelbub (Spain), Hassan (likely), Homiyu Tesfaye (likely), 5 likely doping Ethiopians, numerous Ethiopian Turks busted like Evan Abeylegesse. There was he Sabadell incident and Dibaba was in the room next door. Jama held his training camps in Ethiopia, I think at Bekele's track (while holding Mo's stopwatch). Somebody needs to link Seppelt's visit to Ethiopia on here.

Well I don't count Fancy Bears lists as a doping bust, so that probably explains most of our disconnect in the figures.

spade detector wrote:

Subway Surfers wrote:

Surely there's more than 4 foreign Ethiopians caught doping or likely doping on the Fancy Bears list? Abeba Aregawi, beezelbub (Spain), Hassan (likely), Homiyu Tesfaye (likely), 5 likely doping Ethiopians, numerous Ethiopian Turks busted like Evan Abeylegesse. There was he Sabadell incident and Dibaba was in the room next door. Jama held his training camps in Ethiopia, I think at Bekele's track (while holding Mo's stopwatch). Somebody needs to link Seppelt's visit to Ethiopia on here.

Well I don't count Fancy Bears lists as a doping bust, so that probably explains most of our disconnect in the figures.

No that is a fair view and they haven't officially failed but what I'm pointing out is that is there is a disconnect between Ethiopians running for other countries failing tests while spending part of the year training in Ethiopia, as opposed to locally based Ethiopians. Yet the drugs are easier to obtain in Ethiopia.

None of this seems to impact my primary finding -- that non-Africans ran poorly, by world standards, in terms of both quantity and quality. I note that for Subway Surfer to find 3%, he had to choose a reference that was 2% slower than the 1990 WR standard. If you think that makes more sense, so be it. It still doesn't explain why non-African performances were so poor. Similarly, Spain was significantly below 1990 standards in the 1980s. Spain's post-1990 performances, when compared to other Americans and Europeans and other non-Africans, and compared to 1990 WR standards, were rather un-outstanding. I didn't even bother to compare Spain to East Africans.

rekrunner wrote:

None of this seems to impact my primary finding -- that non-Africans ran poorly, by world standards, in terms of both quantity and quality.

I note that for Subway Surfer to find 3%, he had to choose a reference that was 2% slower than the 1990 WR standard. If you think that makes more sense, so be it. It still doesn't explain why non-African performances were so poor.

East African or North African? Your own figures for 5000m for show 3.2% for East Africans, the figures I showed for North Africa was from the official data and believe me it took half the day (because 'seriously I've got work to do') so I didn't choose the data. ??

Another time, when he was suffering from typhoid, he still insisted on running in the forest. He put on two tracksuits in spite of the temperature being in the mid-20s, to “encourage sweat”. We walked slowly up the hill. “Are you sure this is a good idea?” I asked him. “It is always better to run than to sleep,” he said. ‘[Cristiano] Ronaldo will not play if he has a cold. [Gareth] Bale will not play. They will rest. Ferenj will all rest, but habesha will work.”

Ronaldo has done more with his talent than any other active footballer, so he's not the best example for the claim the guy is making.

The intersection between elite footballers, elite cyclicst, and elite runners is very small. What might be true is that in a country where many people traing at football and cycling, more people try running, and so more potentially elite running talent gets discovered. The talent pool in Spain is considerable, there are 45 million people now (Ethiopia is huge - 100 million).

There were huge changes in Spanish society in the 1980s related to the restoration of democratic governance following the transition after Franco's death. In particular, during Franco times there was very little infrastructure for supporting sports. The success in the 1990s is in part due to the creation of institutional support structures in the 1980s, and, of course, the many year build up to the Barcelona Olympics, that generated greater than usual interest in track and field.

You were talking about North Africans.

Subway Surfers wrote:

rekrunner wrote:

None of this seems to impact my primary finding -- that non-Africans ran poorly, by world standards, in terms of both quantity and quality.

I note that for Subway Surfer to find 3%, he had to choose a reference that was 2% slower than the 1990 WR standard. If you think that makes more sense, so be it. It still doesn't explain why non-African performances were so poor.

East African or North African? Your own figures for 5000m for show 3.2% for East Africans, the figures I showed for North Africa was from the official data and believe me it took half the day (because 'seriously I've got work to do') so I didn't choose the data. ??

rekrunner wrote:

You were talking about North Africans.

Subway Surfers wrote:

East African or North African? Your own figures for 5000m for show 3.2% for East Africans, the figures I showed for North Africa was from the official data and believe me it took half the day (because 'seriously I've got work to do') so I didn't choose the data. ??

Well quick question, did I make those figures up?