Doug soles greatest coach of all time?

Indoor typically slower than outdoor so comparable times equal fitness gain.

Other thing with those Texas girls is that they are racing in way harsher weather than they did in HS. I know Temecula is warm but they raced closer to the coast for the majority of PRs.

I understand you have a narrative here, but the truth is that it isn't really the way you say it is.

I'm done with the thread. Ridiculous.

Easy-it’s called maturing into a woman. Most girls glory days will be in HS. A rare few do better in college naturally, for a while. Others do it by cutting weight to hold off the inevitable. Let them have their day in HS and use their talents to get into a college they may not have gotten into otherwise. Not everyone has to follow the same path.

Put some updates in bold above to paint a clearer picture.

On average the female athletes that Soles coached in high school lose about 15-20 seconds per mile in college. Greatest coach of all time? If having a few years of glory as a teenager followed by living in a fried body the rest of their lives qualifies as being coached by the greatest of all time, then yeah I agree that Soles is basically God.

Hips and dips wrote:

supernanny wrote:

All slower than they ran back in high school! How's that even possible?

Easy-it’s called maturing into a woman. Most girls glory days will be in HS. A rare few do better in college naturally, for a while. Others do it by cutting weight to hold off the inevitable. Let them have their day in HS and use their talents to get into a college they may not have gotten into otherwise. Not everyone has to follow the same path.

Every single one of my female athletes that ran collegiately ran faster in college.

GregQW wrote:

Every single one of my female athletes that ran collegiately ran faster in college.

How many ran collegiately and what sort of mileage did they do in high school?

It's certainly not fair to think everyone is going to run faster in college, especially females, but when almost none of them do that would at least raise a red flag.

Doug Soles should coach at a college if he can afford to. That environment is much better suited to his style of training. Of course, he couldn't throw the eggs against the wall in college like high school due to not being able to have a roster size that could handle it.

GregQW wrote:

Hips and dips wrote:

Easy-it’s called maturing into a woman. Most girls glory days will be in HS. A rare few do better in college naturally, for a while. Others do it by cutting weight to hold off the inevitable. Let them have their day in HS and use their talents to get into a college they may not have gotten into otherwise. Not everyone has to follow the same path.

Every single one of my female athletes that ran collegiately ran faster in college.

And how many is that?

Yeah Right wrote:

GregQW wrote:

Every single one of my female athletes that ran collegiately ran faster in college.

And how many is that?

Sample size of 1 most likely.

empty pockets wrote:

You have to wonder if the college coaches will figure it out, do not invest money into these kids because they don't pan out.

I know of a college coach who told a recruit that he does not recruit kids from certain programs because of how hard they train in HS and how little they do in college. Word will get out.

Buyer beware.

I coach at the D1 level (NCAA bubble team) and a lot of us don't recruit out of California. If we do, it is very cautiously. Tons of teams over there do much more than other states do and squeeze a lot of their talent early on. CIF-SS teams are notorious for this in my opinion. But what are you to do? Just looking at results, the it is very difficult to even get to the state meet and all the coaches are pushing their kids hard. At that point, you have to do it as well if you want to be successful.

I coach at the D1 level (NCAA bubble team) and a lot of us don't recruit out of California. If we do, it is very cautiously. Tons of teams over there do much more than other states do and squeeze a lot of their talent early on. CIF-SS teams are notorious for this in my opinion. But what are you to do? Just looking at results, the it is very difficult to even get to the state meet and all the coaches are pushing their kids hard. At that point, you have to do it as well if you want to be successful.[/quote]

How can a CA kid get your attention and show you he is not used up or damaged? If the kid reached out to you or his coach could talk you through his workload, would that get your attention? Is a rising senior 4:12/9:16 state finalist good enough for a second look? Just interested in how much of a stigma is attached to CA kids.

Whoa you have to recruit cautiously? That must be horrible! I'm so sorry you have to think about what you're doing.

If 35-45 miles a week is pushing our kids too hard for you to pick them up and get them to improve you are doing something wrong sir. Sure, avoid the 70+ miles a week programs, but not recruiting out of California because there are a few high mileage meat-grinder programs is leaving a lot of talent on the table. The kids in the CIF-SS are better than most areas simply due to population density and economics, not mileage.

How cautious are you with the states that allow their middle schoolers to race? How cautious are you of the states at elevation?

This is quite an interesting debate.

On one hand, we have Great Oak achieving really amazing stuff - team titles, individual titles and great PRs across the board. This is good for the kids; they learn the value of hard work, teamwork, and some even get a significant amount of college paid for.

On the other hand, there's no sign that Great Oak athletes continue to thrive. They get to college and either don't improve or even go backwards. It's got to be frustrating and discouraging. (This is bad for the kids.) Also, college coaches are starting to be skeptical of the GO program. This is not speculation; I've heard it first hand that some won't recruit kids from GO, no matter what they achieve.

Is Doug Soles working them so hard they are burned out and have no room for improvement? Evidence suggests yes. Can he find a balance that gets similar results without burning the kids out during high school? That would be his biggest challenge, and his greatest accomplishment if he can make it happen. Genuinely wish him well and hope he solves this.

This is abnormal wrote:

GregQW wrote:

Every single one of my female athletes that ran collegiately ran faster in college.

How many ran collegiately and what sort of mileage did they do in high school?

It's certainly not fair to think everyone is going to run faster in college, especially females, but when almost none of them do that would at least raise a red flag.

Doug Soles should coach at a college if he can afford to. That environment is much better suited to his style of training. Of course, he couldn't throw the eggs against the wall in college like high school due to not being able to have a roster size that could handle it.

Most idiotic post of the day. He teaches in C.A., probably making 6 figures with a sweet pension. Why would you leave that for a college gig paying half (maybe) with no pension. He’d be an assistant under the director of T&F and have to be a yes man. Not to mention recruiting with a limited roster size and no scholarships. He’s a great HS coach but should stay there. He’d be destroyed in college.

Here's what I'd want to know: what's their college GPA?

Coach 1: "We'll keep your daughter progressing from year to year so that she's set up perfectly to run at a $50,000 tuition DIII school or maybe a lower tier D1. No scholarship money likely. In college, she'll need to commit to several hours of training a day if she wants a shot at the varsity team and a mid-pack conference finish. That's not a problem if she doesn't have a demanding major like engineering or English. If she's super talented and dedicated, she might turn out to be a star with a shot at a $15,000-year job as a pro runner for a few years until she realizes she's hit her ceiling."

Coach 2: "We try to give our kids the best experience they can have in high school. Only a few go on to run in college, but they all learn about hard work, commitment, dedication, and success. After winning league, or CIF, or state, or NXN, my athletes go on to study law, medicine, and physics at some great universities."

Personally, I want Coach 2 to be working with my daughter.

So you think it's either one or the other?? Coach 1's kid can't also go on to study law, medicine, and physics at some great universities while running faster than he or she did in HS??

Stop it. Just stop it.

There is also evidence that many college coaches are babying their athletes, often not letting them run high mileage. A kid running 60 miles a week their senior year will naturally not improve or more likely go backwards if you only let them run 50 miles a week their freshman year, which is absolutely the case at a lot of colleges. The problem is not that Doug Soles challenges his kids to find their limits, it's that college coaches do not.

Soles Inn wrote:

[quote]The problem is not that Doug Soles challenges his kids to find their limits, it's that college coaches do not.

Ah hah hah hah hah hah hah.............hah.

Comedy gold right here!

Completely disagree. I ran all four years for Soles and am now running D1 in college. My college coach continues to push me and challenge me. However, he is much more methodical about it. We’ve been building up my mileage again and I’m running the same amount now as I did in high school, but in a much smarter fashion. No more 20 mile Monday bullshit.

All of you on here think you know and understand that program. But the truth is none of you will get it because none of you experience it. Running for Great Oak was incredibly difficult. It taught me how to push myself and also allowed me to develop a work ethic I don’t think I would have developed on my own. My biggest take away from running for Soles and Noble was the character it built. That is priceless.

However, I do believe that the training is too much. I think the program can have the same success at 20 less miles per week. You don’t need 80 miles to succeed as a 16 year old. Or 60 for that matter. Again, this is personal opinion. There is a winning culture at GO. There is pressure to preform. There is pressure to beat your teammates. There are unhealthy aspects to the culture. The girls get mean with one another. Some girls get eating disorders. At the end of the day we love each other, but we loved our own success more.

With this combination of physical and emotion stress I was high strung for months on end. All I could think about was running, my goals, trying to keep myself healthy. It was obsessive. I pushed my family and friends away. All I cared about was being top 7. Is this Soles fault? Partially yes. He encouraged the competitiveness amongst us, which at times can be good, but he pushed too far at times. It was also partly my own fault and I recognize that.

As for running in college, I haven’t run anywhere near my high school times. It is soul crushing. I still love running the same as I did in High School. I still try as hard as I did in High School. My major isn’t as challenging as other majors. I don’t party, I don’t drink. I’ve gained maybe 7 pounds since graduation, mostly muscle. I’m not perfect, but I’m doing almost everything in my power to set myself up for success. So why am i not improving? I don’t know. The most feasible reason would be that my body won’t let me. You can call it burnout if you want, but I think burn out is mostly mental.

At the end of the day I have mixed feelings on my experience running for Soles. I got to have a very unique high school running experience that not many runners get to have. I’m grateful for being able to represent the team at a very elite level. Im grateful that I got to go on to run D1 in college, at a school I love dearly and with teammates who mean the world to me. I’m grateful for different little things Soles and Noble did for me and the relationship I had with them. On the other hand, the program was exhausting physically and mentally. I felt so relieved when I graduated. I could never imagine doing high school running all over again. The program has left me with long lasting negative affects. Mostly mental, things like body dysmorphia and anxiety.

So when you all get on here and talk about the program, that none of you truly know anything about, realize that it’s not black and white.

My final thoughts are that no ones well-being and health is worth more than a state championship. A lot of these runners think they are solely their times. They feel as if their worth is determined by their place or PR. You are worth so much more than that and I wish that was something that we were told more often.

Thanks for the honesty. Truly appreciate it.

Hello everyone,

This is Isaac Cortes, former runner for Great Oak.

Although I've never taken anything on Letsrun seriously before, I can't help to notice that all of you have such a great understanding of what goes in the cross country program at my former high school! You must all feel very proud for taking so much time to research high school running and pointing out all of our flaws as some sort of favor for college coaches to consider.

While all of you continue to deliver your fruitful scouting reports, keep in mind that none of you know what goes on in our college experiences and daily lives. There are so many factors that affect running, but all of you are incredibly obsessed with targeting coaches and their methods. Another thing I can say is that no runner at Great Oak was forced to be on the cross country or track team. If there were any problems that a runner had with the coaches or team, they had every right to leave. Everyone who ran for Great Oak CHOSE to run on the team (or were forced by their parents to join the team for a couple years so they wouldn't sit inside all day, which is common on every team). And sure, Coach Soles and Noble encouraged competitiveness on the team, as every good coach would do, right? Many of the guys and girls on our team would sacrifice so much time to get better at running because they saw what success could bring them. Not only did winning state titles mean getting a state trophy and ring, but it also meant fame because of all the media coverage (from PrepCalTrack, Milesplit, etc.), all the free gear you could get from events such as NXN, and even something as stupid as gaining a bunch followers on Twitter and Instagram. Those reasons factored into the hard work that was put into the program, and it was not some sort of brainwashing tactic that was imposed by our coaches.

Finally, I know I cannot speak for everyone else on this, but I would like to say that it is MY fault that I have not improved in college. Not Coach Soles, not my college coach, not anyone but myself. And in my opinion, every runner always has substantial control over their own running career, not the coach.

Think twice before you go back on your computer and talk bad about other people, just because you have nothing better to do. If you have anymore questions, feel free to message me on Facebook or Twitter.

- Isaac