Jake Robertson wins Lisbon in 60:01!

El Keniano wrote:

[quote]

Again, what would you make of any athlete moving to Russia in this current climate?

1. Kenya has seen no massive, politically driven international attack on the credibility of it's athletic programs being drug-free, and has not been banned from international competition. Very different from Russia in this regard, and thanks to the media, most common folk would not connect Kenya and doping, but they sure would Russia.

2. Why would someone move to somewhere that's -60 degrees compared to somewhere that's 60 most of the time?

Folks, this guy gets it. Read the post above, then read it again very carefully. This poster knows what he's talking about.

wer.aiupoasf wrote:

Answer directly, El Keniano, is this claim false?

"A lot of top guys are dirty. Names are hidden, positive tests are hidden for bribe money. It's a big problem," he said.

https://www.nytimes.com/2016/02/11/sports/banned-kenyan-runners-say-they-were-asked-for-bribes.htmlhttp://fortune.com/video/2016/03/07/nike-bribes-athletics-kenya/http://www.telegraph.co.uk/olympics/2016/08/07/kenyan-athletics-manager-recalled-amid-claims-of-bribery-over-do/

Surely you are joking, Kenyans couldn't possibly be doping, they live at high altitude and do all the correct hard training.

Lost nation wrote:

"His" Twitter? You called them both vile. Such a claim I think would mean you have some quotes and support to back up your sentiments, but maybe you are just a bad person.

El Keniano wrote:

Anyway, these guys aren't my favourite subject so there's no need for me to dwell on them. How about we focus on the happier subject of a different pilgrim to Iten who's actually well liked and appreciated and vice versa? Can you spot the difference in interaction with the locals and the mutual respect they have for one another? It's like night and day compared to those kiwis.

Sorry, I meant to link Bob Tahri's experiences as an example of a foreigner who's accepted and respected.

Yeah you sound like a real piece of work.

yeah, he is probably kicking himself for waving and not running 2 seconds faster to get that elusive sub 60. i bet he never does break it....i'm bummed for him

dutiest wrote:

Looks like he was easing his way in to the finish and could have broken 60 if he had wanted to. Amazing, though, how slow the elites look when they are moving at 4:37 pace. They are just so efficient/powerful in their strides.

The two brothers may be proving the power of genetics (twin runners usually run pretty similarly fast, the Jefferson brothers were two good examples) but they are also proving that if you train at altitude with very high quality workout partners, as in Kenya and Ethiopia where they've trained, you are going to run very fast.

El Keniano wrote:

Lost nation wrote:

"His" Twitter? You called them both vile. Such a claim I think would mean you have some quotes and support to back up your sentiments, but maybe you are just a bad person.

El Keniano wrote:

Anyway, these guys aren't my favourite subject so there's no need for me to dwell on them. How about we focus on the happier subject of a different pilgrim to Iten who's actually well liked and appreciated and vice versa? Can you spot the difference in interaction with the locals and the mutual respect they have for one another? It's like night and day compared to those kiwis.

Sorry, I meant to link Bob Tahri's experiences as an example of a foreigner who's accepted and respected.

Dopers respect dopers.

Lostnation wrote:

Yeah you sound like a real piece of work.

Do I, really? Thanks.

wer.aiupoasf wrote:

Answer directly, El Keniano, is this claim false?

"A lot of top guys are dirty. Names are hidden, positive tests are hidden for bribe money. It's a big problem," he said.

I purposely try to steer clear of this topic nowadays because I've never seen anyone change their mind on LetsRun. Nothing I say will stop you from believing that the running revolution started by led by Kip Keino in the 1960s, and the ensuing 50 years of utter domination, is due to a massive, secret, doping programme.

The New York Times alluded to what the cause might be in a great piece about Keino:

The prevailing wisdom was that middle- and long-distance running was a cornerstone of Anglo-Saxon athletic dominance. The sprints, so the stereotype went, required only raw natural talent, but distance races were cerebral and required grit and stamina, focus and organization. What impressed the 10-year-old Thompson as much as the victory was Keino’s show of compassion, not simply sportsmanship, toward Ryun, who was devastated by the loss

I'll leave it at that.

Its quite obvious not just doping that makes kenayns (and ethiophians wich are far better at 5 and 10k) dopers. Everyone knows the reasons, no point in listing them up. But, give them the natural and cultural advantages and add on a terrible testing system you'll get athletes that dope and set records few others can come close to. And those who do are often shady athletes as well.

El Keniano is a real piece of work, just google some of the vile things he have uttered on letsrun. Theres plenty.

So the Robertson brothers are vile , Kenyans are better because they work harder/have grit and stamina and focus etc., and the claims are Kenyan doping are due to Anglo-Saxon jealousy.

I hate getting caught in threads about doping but I'm going to comment on this. I never believed that the distance running revolution started by Keino was anything more people whose backgrounds developed them into great distance runners and who then worked hard to develop their "natural" abilities even further...until the last ten years or so.

The performances just seem unbelievable. That in itself shouldn't taint the athletes but when you have documentaries and media reports showing how easy it is to obtain illegal PEDs there, next to nothing in the way of out of competition testing, failed tests done outside of the country, athletes themselves making claims of PED use and of administrators taking bribes to cover up failed tests it's hard not to believe the worst.

Canova used to talk about how Kenyans didn't need to dope to beat westerners. I never disagreed with him about that but thought that was a moot point. They could need to dope to beat other Kenyans or Ethiopians. I appreciate and admire your loyalty to your country. But being angry at people who believe that a lot of Kenyan performances are tainted is misplaced anger. It's Athletics Kenya who should be protecting the reputation of its athletes and of the nation's integrity.

Barakus Obama wrote:

El Keniano is a real piece of work, just google some of the vile things he have uttered on letsrun. Theres plenty.

I'd really like to see examples of some of these vile things I've supposedly uttered. I'm not a troll; Try to be respectful; Always post under my handle; Never start threads to attack people for no reason; And the only time I get 'triggered', and a little sarcastic, is when I feel my country is under an avalanche of unwarranted attacks. Nowadays, I tend to just ignore the hater threads/posts but sometimes wade in, once in a while, against my better judgment.

My criticism of the Robertsons is legitimate. Nothing I've said on this thread isn't true. It's a failure of journalism to not point out that they've changed their tune about Kenya at least three times in just a few months given the seriousness of their allegations last year. If that doesn't call their credibility into question ...

Sorry for not simply rolling over everytime we take a beating on this forum.

*Sigh!* Why do I even bother? It was a mistake to engage you lot. Just let this thread die, please.

why dont they just train at altitude in europe or states .............

time for them to stand by what say and make like a tree ,

is it economics ,

still can dope in these places , especially what using as dont

even or wont test for it . and others doing it .

sure find it in oregon and even some teens loading up over there

but maybe fear cant sourse it anywhere else

igf-1 is clearly all over kenyan and south african sport .

even dirtier than epo era , as now have speed to go with it

igf-1 lr3 really is a wonder drug changing sport or more like

ruining it ,now even more lies and deceit than ever

banning whole countries when many worst .just not in anglo america club .

Athletics Kenya didn't protect the reputation of its athletes and of the nation's integrity, instead acted in superficial way, hiding the reality, not explaining in clear and scientific way the fact that ALL THE BEST were clean, and provoking a lot of suspicions on all the national athletics.

When in 2012 I personally went to speak with Isaiah Kiplagat, informing him there were problems of doping with some of the athletes of second level, he answered me "this is not a problem for a mzungu, let us to face this problem", and at the end the solution was to accuse foreigner managers and coaches to introduce doping in Kenya, when instead already there was a criminal organization, including Kenyan doctors and pharmacists, abusing of the athletes of second and third level, promising "legal" supports in change of the percentage of their prizes.

All the reports of Seppelt about doping in Kenya were FAKE ALLEGATIONS, built for creating some scoop. This was part of a plan, designed inside the Antidoping Agency, because it was the only way for making the Kenyan Government finally interested to support WADA in the right way.

It was not right that Kenyans and Ethiopians top athletes were not tested. They were the most tested in the World (in 2014, 135 Kenyan in whereabouts for more than 400 tests OOC, including a high percentage with blood tests), the fact is that all these tests were carried out by WADA, with a very high cost, and of course WADA couldn't use 20% of the total budget for testing two Countries only.

The fact is that, in spite of many requests, the Kenyan Gov. never contributed for the cost of tests, giving only... 2000 USD in 2014 !

Only the threaten of a ban from Olympics had the effect to wake up the Gov. in order to invest real money in the AKAD (Kenyan Antidoping Agency), but, how I could explain several times, this fact couldn't change the reality, that is :

1) All the top athletes were tested before, and are tested now. The only difference is that now the cost of tests is at charge of AKAD (before was WADA and IAAF)

2) The athlete tested OOC are in whereabouts only. This means that all the athletes not in the first 30 in the world are not tested. But how many Kenyans there are in the top 30 in the world ?

800m : 12 (Men) - 2 (W)

1500m : 10 (M, all in first 20) - 3 (W)

5000m : 7 (M) - 10 (W)

10000m : 11 (M) - 7 (W)

Steeple : 13 (M) - 11 (W)

HM : 24 (M, time of the 30th 60:06) - 15 (W, the 30th 68:08)

Mar : 19 (M, the 30th 2:06:58) - 8 (W, the 30th 2:24:32)

3) This means that ALL THE KENYANS RUNNING HM SLOWER THAN 60:06, and MARATHON SLOWER THAN 2:07:00, NEVER can be tested OOC, because are not in top 10 or 20 in the National Lists, and there is no Country in the World testing OOC athletes not in top 10 in the Country, in any event.

4) This means also that NOTHING CAN CHANGE about the research of doped athletes, because these athletes, if doped, can only be tested IN COMPETITION, when they are in some important race.

The same situation is for Ethiopians. So, is time to stop the idea that the best in the World were doped, and were not caught only because there were no tests. KENYANS AND ETHIOPIANS TOP ATHLETES ARE NOT CAUGHT BECAUSE ARE NOT DOPED, some of lower level is caught because IS DOPED.

And the fact that the best are clean, while somebody behind them is doped, can only give more strength to what I continue to say : EPO FOR ATHLETES USING HARD AND SMART TRAINING, BORN, LIVING AND TRAINING IN ALTITUDE, DOESN'T WORK.

El Keniano and Native Son are taqiyya grandmasters for the religion of Kenyan running.

El Keniano wrote:

I'd really like to see examples of some of these vile things I've supposedly uttered.

The hypocrisy is hilarious!

Maybe. Obviously you know loads about Kenya and I know very little. On the other hand, you have a real investment in selling the idea that the fastest East Africans are clean, so it's hard to take your comments about this as completely disinterested and unbiased. If I have to choose between believing an independent news organization on this topic and someone coaching some of the accused athletes I have to go with the independent news organization.

Lydiard had a similar blind spot about the East Germans, he once told me he was sure they were clean, and we know how that turned out. And as far as I can tell, you're the only "authority" who makes the claim you do in that last sentence. The two people I know with exercise science Ph.Ds have both called that idea nonsense. And along those lines, I don't know how you can say EPO won't work for someone unless that someone has used EPO.