The fundamental reality is with the rise of dating apps along with the pill, a lot of men are struggling to find a partner because the dating dynamics has changed giving women more power to pursue men who are out of their league. There is no incentive for young men to work and die as a worker bee and a lot of them are realising that and becoming full of nihilism. Very scary times ahead of us
not true at all. I know several women who are single but would like to date me if I would not be happy in a relationship. And I am not especially good looking or with a high paying job. Being a stable person is enough really.
This is also my experience. I settled down into stability and established good habits to take care of myself and I was ready when my lucky strike showed up. Before that, I was getting terrible options for dating. Now, highly attractive women give me eyes pretty regularly. Too many spineless, unsettled men want to evade all responsibility for their state. Of course, no decent woman wants a spineless, shifty weasel so it's a self-fulfilling prophecy to remain hopeless in that mindset. Enjoy your selection of addicts and other wounded, defeated psyches.
There has been some research on this; some economists think that a lot of the decrease we see in men working can be attributed to video games getting a lot better over time. Also a lot of them are zonked out on pain meds. Bad combo
Most men throughout the history of mankind have been genetic dead ends. In other words, their male lines died out, either because they could not reproduce children that women were attracted to sufficiently, or could not repridyce themselves.
Unmarried men die a lot younger than married men or unmarried women, so it's just genetics at play
I also know a lot of non working men in this age group. They seem so poorly motivated compared to women of the same age. Maybe the idea that there is marriage and a good job waiting for all men needs to be repositioned by educators, so these men are more prepared for the realities of the modern world.
I also know some working men born into quite favourable circumstances who have swallowed the red pill doctrine so that they have rendered themselves undatable, incapable of promotion and incapable of attracting more than unemployed women. Most of them are still single approaching their fifties, having revised to marry their plain unemployed girlfriend as they consider themselves too high a prize. Or they turn into passport bros and get themselves what is effectively a slave with brown skin from a poorer country.
I have known a few guys like this. They have become so happy in the cozy rut of their routine, they cling to it steadfastly and refuse to seriously consider growing beyond it. They stay in the same, unfulfilling jobs with no potential for promotion, do the same things with the same people for decades, stay anchored to the same sort of living situation in the same place forever. They are highly educated (STEM/grad degrees) and risk averse. That can be a good life yet it's patently obvious that they're lonely. One has even put himself in a nutty chick's friendzone for over a decade to maintain denial. Change is hard, but it's impossible when you have convinced yourself that you're doomed by things outside your control so you don't do anything about what you can control.
Not even kidding. Is this an isolated incident or widespread across the country? They aren't even looking for work anymore. Is this because of COVID or something?
Something is psychically broken in the under-30 set, and I fear it may be beyond repair. In the 90s when we felt like dropping out of school or a job or life we were at least a bit more creative with the dropping out. My friends bought Greyhound tickets for Cancun went surfing and whoring for a few years. They moved to Eastern Europe and taught English to old people and toddlers. They joined the Peace Corps and quickly left the Peace Corps. They moved to pot farms in Humboldt County where they smoked weed and got into barefoot running.
To collapse into the rapturous arms of video game reality suggests such a lack of creativity, not to mention basic willpower, that I can’t even fathom it.
On one level, I get it. No one wants to participate in 60-hour-a-week grind culture anymore. We’ve seen generations of Americans burn out, get divorced, get fat, and literally die from it. The American addiction to excess seems to finally be crumbling away.
Most men throughout the history of mankind have been genetic dead ends. In other words, their male lines died out, either because they could not reproduce children that women were attracted to sufficiently, or could not repridyce themselves.
Unmarried men die a lot younger than married men or unmarried women, so it's just genetics at play
I also know a lot of non working men in this age group. They seem so poorly motivated compared to women of the same age. Maybe the idea that there is marriage and a good job waiting for all men needs to be repositioned by educators, so these men are more prepared for the realities of the modern world.
I also know some working men born into quite favourable circumstances who have swallowed the red pill doctrine so that they have rendered themselves undatable, incapable of promotion and incapable of attracting more than unemployed women. Most of them are still single approaching their fifties, having revised to marry their plain unemployed girlfriend as they consider themselves too high a prize. Or they turn into passport bros and get themselves what is effectively a slave with brown skin from a poorer country.
Women from their teens to their 40s are MUCH more career-motivated than most men of those ages I know. They are going from being HS popularity queens to sorority girls, then nailing internships and landing great jobs out of college right away.
Some guys are like this but then they are also more likely to game and do lazy things like that. I quit gaming for fear of avoiding being stereotyped as one of those guys...career first before everything, then everything fell into place.
Marriage works if you get lucky, but also if you put all the effort into improving yourself too and having healthy male and female friendships BEFORE marriage and dating.
Also, women won't date lazy men at all unless they have family $ in some cases.
Lots of unhappy women in the corporate world, self medicating with food, hoping to ride out the last 20 years of work life, forced to work under/with other backstabbing women they hate. Much like men
You're wrong about the Hokas part. However, I am happy and indifferent if my happiness impresses lame incels. Your defensiveness is certainly amusing, of course.
The fundamental reality is with the rise of dating apps along with the pill, a lot of men are struggling to find a partner because the dating dynamics has changed giving women more power to pursue men who are out of their league. There is no incentive for young men to work and die as a worker bee and a lot of them are realising that and becoming full of nihilism. Very scary times ahead of us
Women technically don't need men nowadays. They have great careers and can pick all the hot alpha guys in the corporate world, etc. Same with all the guys in the corporate world who get all the alpha females.
It's the middle-class that struggles. So middle class men are being hedonistic and turning into Omega males.
It's not a women/men issue; it's a white-collar vs. blue-collar issue.
Theres actually quite a movement amongst women now that men are too much trouble to have in their lives. All of the effort of dating, ghosting, being messed around, risk of being cheated on, all for a man who likely earns less than you, has some debt due to stupid decision making and wants you to wait him at home like his mom did. And then if you do have kids, the risk of him cheating/leaving you, divorce costs and so on. Then you are a single mom with kids to look after as well as trying to reconcile your career.
So many men (and I have to agree with you thats its often middle class men) walk in and out of our lives, causing drama at best and devastation otherwise. You just have to look at all the posts on here criticising women and telling us how western men don't want us anyway. If I were single again, I would deliberately avoid dating because its just too disruptive. I can earn enough money to have a good life from my career and don't want to put it at risk.
ALL of my female friends have been cheated on by their boyfriends at one time or other, struggled to eat, developed depression or had to take time off work as a result. Mainly because the guys they were dating thought they were too good to be in a committed, monogamous relationship. Although they were just ordinary guys.
Theres actually quite a movement amongst women now that men are too much trouble to have in their lives. All of the effort of dating, ghosting, being messed around, risk of being cheated on, all for a man who likely earns less than you, has some debt due to stupid decision making and wants you to wait him at home like his mom did. And then if you do have kids, the risk of him cheating/leaving you, divorce costs and so on. Then you are a single mom with kids to look after as well as trying to reconcile your career.
So many men (and I have to agree with you thats its often middle class men) walk in and out of our lives, causing drama at best and devastation otherwise. You just have to look at all the posts on here criticising women and telling us how western men don't want us anyway. If I were single again, I would deliberately avoid dating because its just too disruptive. I can earn enough money to have a good life from my career and don't want to put it at risk.
ALL of my female friends have been cheated on by their boyfriends at one time or other, struggled to eat, developed depression or had to take time off work as a result. Mainly because the guys they were dating thought they were too good to be in a committed, monogamous relationship. Although they were just ordinary guys.
What's your relationship like with your father? (I already know the answer)
Theres actually quite a movement amongst women now that men are too much trouble to have in their lives. All of the effort of dating, ghosting, being messed around, risk of being cheated on, all for a man who likely earns less than you, has some debt due to stupid decision making and wants you to wait him at home like his mom did. And then if you do have kids, the risk of him cheating/leaving you, divorce costs and so on. Then you are a single mom with kids to look after as well as trying to reconcile your career.
So many men (and I have to agree with you thats its often middle class men) walk in and out of our lives, causing drama at best and devastation otherwise. You just have to look at all the posts on here criticising women and telling us how western men don't want us anyway. If I were single again, I would deliberately avoid dating because its just too disruptive. I can earn enough money to have a good life from my career and don't want to put it at risk.
ALL of my female friends have been cheated on by their boyfriends at one time or other, struggled to eat, developed depression or had to take time off work as a result. Mainly because the guys they were dating thought they were too good to be in a committed, monogamous relationship. Although they were just ordinary guys.
What's your relationship like with your father? (I already know the answer)
Great.
Did you miss the parts where I said I wasn't single, and I was talking about quite a lot of other women, not just myself?
Hows your relationship with your mother? Do you are argue a lot with your parents?
Most men throughout the history of mankind have been genetic dead ends. In other words, their male lines died out, either because they could not reproduce children that women were attracted to sufficiently, or could not repridyce themselves.
Unmarried men die a lot younger than married men or unmarried women, so it's just genetics at play
I also know a lot of non working men in this age group. They seem so poorly motivated compared to women of the same age. Maybe the idea that there is marriage and a good job waiting for all men needs to be repositioned by educators, so these men are more prepared for the realities of the modern world.
I also know some working men born into quite favourable circumstances who have swallowed the red pill doctrine so that they have rendered themselves undatable, incapable of promotion and incapable of attracting more than unemployed women. Most of them are still single approaching their fifties, having revised to marry their plain unemployed girlfriend as they consider themselves too high a prize. Or they turn into passport bros and get themselves what is effectively a slave with brown skin from a poorer country.
I have known a few guys like this. They have become so happy in the cozy rut of their routine, they cling to it steadfastly and refuse to seriously consider growing beyond it. They stay in the same, unfulfilling jobs with no potential for promotion, do the same things with the same people for decades, stay anchored to the same sort of living situation in the same place forever. They are highly educated (STEM/grad degrees) and risk averse. That can be a good life yet it's patently obvious that they're lonely. One has even put himself in a nutty chick's friendzone for over a decade to maintain denial. Change is hard, but it's impossible when you have convinced yourself that you're doomed by things outside your control so you don't do anything about what you can control.
Am I the only one who notices an incredibly disturbing connection between emotional infantility and STEM degrees?
The fundamental reality is with the rise of dating apps along with the pill, a lot of men are struggling to find a partner because the dating dynamics has changed giving women more power to pursue men who are out of their league. There is no incentive for young men to work and die as a worker bee and a lot of them are realising that and becoming full of nihilism. Very scary times ahead of us
So what? I've never been in a relationship, and there's still plenty of incentive to work hard, earn a lot, and be successful:
- early retirement
- luxury travel
- fancy cars and mansions
- satisfaction in being in senior management and making a company successful
- not having to worry about whether you can afford something
- expensive hobbies
Give me a choice between lifetime singlehood with $500K a year or being married to anyone I like with $50K a year, and I'd choose the former. Always.
Most men throughout the history of mankind have been genetic dead ends. In other words, their male lines died out, either because they could not reproduce children that women were attracted to sufficiently, or could not repridyce themselves.
Unmarried men die a lot younger than married men or unmarried women, so it's just genetics at play
I also know a lot of non working men in this age group. They seem so poorly motivated compared to women of the same age. Maybe the idea that there is marriage and a good job waiting for all men needs to be repositioned by educators, so these men are more prepared for the realities of the modern world.
I also know some working men born into quite favourable circumstances who have swallowed the red pill doctrine so that they have rendered themselves undatable, incapable of promotion and incapable of attracting more than unemployed women. Most of them are still single approaching their fifties, having revised to marry their plain unemployed girlfriend as they consider themselves too high a prize. Or they turn into passport bros and get themselves what is effectively a slave with brown skin from a poorer country.
I have known a few guys like this. They have become so happy in the cozy rut of their routine, they cling to it steadfastly and refuse to seriously consider growing beyond it. They stay in the same, unfulfilling jobs with no potential for promotion, do the same things with the same people for decades, stay anchored to the same sort of living situation in the same place forever. They are highly educated (STEM/grad degrees) and risk averse. That can be a good life yet it's patently obvious that they're lonely. One has even put himself in a nutty chick's friendzone for over a decade to maintain denial. Change is hard, but it's impossible when you have convinced yourself that you're doomed by things outside your control so you don't do anything about what you can control.
You nailed it. They're risk averse, but over really small things that people shouldn't be risk averse over, and then often their behaviour/decision making over bigger things is risky - doing drugs, sleeping around, not performing well in their career, not cultivating healthy relationships/friends.
One of the guys I'm thinking of had an unemployed gf for about 10 years, she moved in with him, he refused to get married, she left him eventually and married somebody else. All the time he was cheating on her but mainly getting turned down by higher value women because he had a gf. He's now in his late forties, single, spends most of his time on Tinder and lives in a really small apartment in a small dead end town, probably because his salary on his own doesn't stretch to anything bigger.
It goes against what society has taught us since the '90s.
Do well in HS, be well-rounded.
Go to college.
Get good job.
Move on up through career, marry, have a family, buy a house.
But if the system is crashing is it worth it?
Back in HS the guidance counselors said college was the way--and the trades were for the kids who were druggies (wrongly suggested). Those kids are doing great in blue-collar jobs and have married. Now they married locally and didn't move from their hometown as much as white-collar kids did but they have more stable careers.
In my experience, this is wrong. A few examples isn't the rule. The fact is Bachelors degrees make more than high school diplomas. And Masters more than Bachelors. And PhDs more than Masters. Getting educated is still, and always will be the answer if you want to make more money. The fact is being educated allows you to do more difficult jobs as you get older and make more money. There is no broad evidence against that. One example here or there isn't a trend. You have to look at the entire population.
This means not everyone will hit the jackpot with a good job after getting educated. The problem is too many people think you get your degrees and everyone will start calling you. It's a competitive world. You have to fight if you want a job.
I agree, but that's actually why I provided the anecdote: this guy was the one who everyone was calling. He hit the jackpot, tried it out for a few years, then determined it wasn't worth the effort.
Take Cece, a rising senior: “The majority of the guys I’ve encountered at U.Va. don’t want to commit to an actual relationship. They haven’t grown up. They want to hook up with girls, but that’s it. Many of my friends and I are frustrated with the lack of maturity our guy friends exemplify. My parents met in college, which was common among their generation, and are about to celebrate their 30th anniversary. Meanwhile, I have one year left at U.Va. and don’t foresee myself dating anyone.”
It goes against what society has taught us since the '90s.
Do well in HS, be well-rounded. 4.5ish GPA, 4:41 1600m. Was fairly stressed at times but still happy in general.
Go to college. Done. Got a few scholarships (not track, obviously) and graduated with no student loans.
Get good job. First job wasn't ideal, but my second and third ones were much better.
Move on up through career done, see above, marry Why?, have a family WHY???, buy a house done, bought a house at age 26.
But if the system is crashing is it worth it? Yes, because there's still lots of fun to be had in the meantime. A few weeks ago, I flew a Cessna over Monument Valley, and not many things will beat that experience.
Back in HS the guidance counselors said college was the way it is for many people but definitely not for everyone --and the trades were for the kids who were druggies (wrongly suggested correct, most people in the trades aren't druggies). Those kids are doing great in blue-collar jobs probably true, but try working construction for 30+ years - your back won't be happy and have married so what?. Now they married locally who cares and didn't move from their hometown as much as white-collar kids did different strokes for different folks but they have more stable careers more stable in the short term, but many trades aren't good for your body when you hit your mid-50s.
In his book “Guyland”, sociologist Michael Kimmel described it this way:
“In another era, these guys would undoubtedly be poised to take their place in the adult world, taking the first steps toward becoming the nation’s future professional, entrepreneurs and business leaders. They would be engaged to be married, thinking about settling down with a family, preparing for futures as civic leaders and Little League dads. Not today. Today, many of these young men, poised between adolescence and adulthood, are more likely to feel anxious and uncertain. In college, they party hard but are soft on studying. … After graduation, they drift aimlessly from one dead-end job to another, spend more time online playing video games and gambling than they do on dates. …”
Women from their teens to their 40s are MUCH more career-motivated than most men of those ages I know. They are going from being HS popularity queens to sorority girls, then nailing internships and landing great jobs out of college right away.
Some guys are like this but then they are also more likely to game and do lazy things like that. I quit gaming for fear of avoiding being stereotyped as one of those guys...career first before everything, then everything fell into place.
Marriage works if you get lucky, but also if you put all the effort into improving yourself too and having healthy male and female friendships BEFORE marriage and dating.
Also, women won't date lazy men at all unless they have family $ in some cases.
Lots of unhappy women in the corporate world, self medicating with food, hoping to ride out the last 20 years of work life, forced to work under/with other backstabbing women they hate. Much like men
Good points, it affects men differently--guys trying to do Low-T and hit the gym constantly, chasing ghosts of the past. Even ambitious men are vulnerable to the crappiness of the corporate world.
A lot of the unhappy women also have the burden trying to raise families with kids who are not obedient. Even in suburban America, on the East Coast and Midwest.
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