OP: quit dancing around the subject. If Kipchoge was white, would this still be the question?
Secondly, I don’t understand how many people, especially those on the Right, just can’t accept it when someone not of their tribe is far better than anyone else at activity X.
There’s only a small handful of runners who are capable of pushing Kipchoge. He’s just that good. They all have access to all the same shoes, gear, training, etc. those are all red herrings.
He has the physical, mental and emotional commitment to running the marathon. He believes that is his purpose in this life. Hard to match that.
It’s intellectually lazy and reductive to assume my concern is about Kipchoge’s skin color. I have a similar concern about Keira D'Amato, but she at least displayed some mortality in Berlin.
Your comments miss the crucial point about age being a huge factor in my suspicion. I had no issue with Kipchoge being the world’s best marathoner back in 2016. But smashing records all these years later at his age? It is absolutely reasonable to be suspicious. Political leanings have nothing to do with this.
Nobody denies he has total commitment to the marathon. If anything, it’s possible his extreme commitment would lead him to do whatever it takes to fight off Father Time. Moreover, he’s not merely maintaining his level of greatness as he approaches 40. He’s getting better! That is valid reason for suspicion.
So tell me, as someone who seems certain that Kipchoge is clean, what performance at what age would cause you to start doubting?
Fair enough. I think Kipchoge is one of those breakthrough athletes who moves the sport significantly forward. That’s not in doubt. I guess I believe him when he says his “legs” are good for more. He has nothing left to prove in the marathon. I think he will be ready to call it quits clearly when he feels he can no longer perform at that level where WR is within his reach.
So I don’t know the answer to the question. He has already stated his goal to win the 2024 Olympic marathon in Paris. I don’t feel that is beyond belief at all. Maybe if he breaks is WR at 40+ I would question that.
I'M still doing the same thing here? Ignoring common sense? So you define common sense as agreeing with you when you make the same assertions and support them with nothing more than a few vague comments and insults for people who disagree with you? Again, you shoe NOTHING in your posts that's at all persuasive.
There you go again, ducking the issue.
Would you please, for once, in clear English, just what the issue is and how it relates to the OP's question?
You aren't interested in his actual physiology only in some imaginary scenario.
Sorry, I was very interested in what you had to share but you started losing me when you used yourself as your evidence for explaining how Kipchoge is doing what he’s doing along with an unsupported theory about running economy.
After your identity was revealed, I googled your name hoping to find a website, book, or peer-reviewed journal article in which you share compelling research findings on this topic, or perhaps even better, proof that you’re a renowned coach who has guided elite marathoners to championship success using your sophisticated training methods. Instead I came across this old thread - https://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=7047695 - and the first post I saw from you in that thread contained this gem: “The whole PED concept is nonsense. Runners still have to produce sustained power through the feet and ankles. There is no drug to give you that skill.” After seeing that, you lost me.
You aren't interested in his actual physiology only in some imaginary scenario.
Sorry, I was very interested in what you had to share but you started losing me when you used yourself as your evidence for explaining how Kipchoge is doing what he’s doing along with an unsupported theory about running economy.
After your identity was revealed, I googled your name hoping to find a website, book, or peer-reviewed journal article in which you share compelling research findings on this topic, or perhaps even better, proof that you’re a renowned coach who has guided elite marathoners to championship success using your sophisticated training methods. Instead I came across this old thread - https://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=7047695 - and the first post I saw from you in that thread contained this gem: “The whole PED concept is nonsense. Runners still have to produce sustained power through the feet and ankles. There is no drug to give you that skill.” After seeing that, you lost me.
It's not about me. I'm the conduit for other people's research. It goes back over 100 years of good science. But the bad science is what gets the most attention because it's sensationalised.
Thank you. But that's not the issue the OP is asking about. It seems you have nothing to say about that topic. I'd infer that your answer to his question is that you don't believe there's any point at which Kipchoge's performance become too incredible and suspicious. Is that accurate?
You aren't interested in his actual physiology only in some imaginary scenario.
Sorry, I was very interested in what you had to share but you started losing me when you used yourself as your evidence for explaining how Kipchoge is doing what he’s doing along with an unsupported theory about running economy.
The absurdity of Letsrun fans is that they think fanatically dedicated athletes would not do whatever they could to succeed. Fans are like children who believe in fairytales.
Question for everyone here who believes Kipchoge is clean: If a 2:01:09 with a sub-60 first half at nearly age 38 isn’t enough to raise your suspicion, then what kind of performance and at what age would it take for you to start questioning him? 1:59? 1:58? Age 39? Age 40? At what point do his performances become too incredible for you?
You claim to be a clean sport advocate but you think like a doper. Time to re-evaluate.
I suppose the questions are: how often is Kipchoge tested a year? (I could find no figures online). How would you view another athlete who races twice a year, devastates the opposition and disappears again? European manager and agent; search Jos Hermans doping. Is this a red flag? Works for Nike. Another red flag perhaps? Lives in a country with documented doping issues. Red again? I'd love to believe he is clean. But I can't.
Yes. He's 100% doping, but so are they all. That's why the major city marathons are beyond boring - doper, followed by doper, followed by doper. Big deal. The winner is the one who can dodge the testers the best: those who live in utterly corrupt countries don't even need to try to be careful as their drug testing agencies don't bother or are bribable (eg. Jamaican doping control is a complete joke, but so are most others in Africa and 3rd world countries; Russia on the other hand takes it a step further and full-on systematically dopes and supports and supplies..both approaches are just as bad as each other). For those in countries with much stronger doping controls [eg. Europe] it is about who can micro-dose the best and newer doping agents that aren't yet detectable (read: Shelby Houlihan - just dumb).
It's just so naive and ignorant to think otherwise at this point. Anyone who thinks the top of athletics is clean is a naive fool. The elite side of the sport has been totally poisoned. The real (clean) winner of most races is probably some unknown down the pack who's lucky to get some kit and a few dollars a month stipend..who'll have to quit to take a job in accounting to support themselves and their family a few years after attempting the elite route..only to lose to rampant dopers. There is realistically basically no place in the elite side of the sport any more for anyone not willing to take the doping route.
I'd now much rather watch college as it least it is (mainly still I believe) clean and honest.
The absurdity of Letsrun fans is that they think fanatically dedicated athletes would not do whatever they could to succeed. Fans are like children who believe in fairytales.
For me it's not the fanatic dedication, but his and Lance Armstrong's personalities are like night and day. He doesn't have the same control issues and hold over his teammates and is always talking about "not lying to yourself". Ultimately you just have to go by your gut instinct and ask yourself if you trust an athlete or not. Notice this site has no trouble trusting, say, Jakob Ingebrigtsen.
The absurdity of Letsrun fans is that they think fanatically dedicated athletes would not do whatever they could to succeed. Fans are like children who believe in fairytales.
For me it's not the fanatic dedication, but his and Lance Armstrong's personalities are like night and day. He doesn't have the same control issues and hold over his teammates and is always talking about "not lying to yourself". Ultimately you just have to go by your gut instinct and ask yourself if you trust an athlete or not. Notice this site has no trouble trusting, say, Jakob Ingebrigtsen.
Not many of the right-minded would ever consider Radcliffe's record to be clean either, to be fair.