Peaking

Quit proving that you do not know how to coach. Why don't you discuss how your "peaking" techniques have cost several high school runners their shots at success? You are the number one used car salesman in coaching. Stop messing up high school runners!!

Busted wrote:

Quit proving that you do not know how to coach. Why don't you discuss how your "peaking" techniques have cost several high school runners their shots at success? You are the number one used car salesman in coaching. Stop messing up high school runners!!

0/10...Actually, I thought this thread had been deleted. I know you're a troll, but I'll respond anyway.

If you read the thread, you'll see that I switched up my team's year end training because I had not been satisfied with the results we had previously produced at out state meet (ones that were a bit more typical of what other schools are doing). Last year was the first time I tried this sort of technique. It yeilded a 62 second PR from the one athlete who used it. I am fully aware that when n=1, you can't prove a whole lot statistically. However, we did use the same pattern for this girl at the end of track season with favorable results for her as well as most of my other distance runners.

I've got the same girl and another runner going to the state meet this year. After saturday, I'll have a sample size of 3 (cross country state meet performances)to draw from.

I have not tried to prove that I know anything more than anybody else on this thread. I originally was asking for input on a new training pattern that I was going to try. Then when it worked out well, I tried to elaborate on it a bit. I appreciate the input of serious posters like Tinman and some of the others who have responded.

Tell you what, when you have a runner PR by 62 seconds in the most important race of the year, you can share what what worked for you and your runners.

A PR is better than leaving in an ambulance.

Tinman doesn´t have enough personal high-level running experience. He clearly thinks that he is the best but you shouldn´t believe everything he says. He preaches too much about his invention called CV (critical velocity) when the right term would be traditional VO2max. This CV intensity is just a compromise between lactate threshold and VO2max. He doesn´t understand that there isn´t need to perform year-round CV/VO2max training, and he doesn´t seem to have enough knowledge on weights/ancillary training. He knows a lot about physiology but the problem is that he makes the training of distance runner seem too complicate and strict. With Tinman approach you can get good but not optimum results, in the long run. Better to listen someone who has enough knowledge on physiology plus has had a long and succesful career with steadily improved results.

18:25

5th place, State Meet

Congratulations CoachB!

I also coach high school cc and distance track and I really identify with your experience here and appreciate your sharing it with us.

Many don't understand how much our sport is a training sport where the training is the tactic/strategy and you only have one chance to get it right--mistakes are easy to make and take a long time to correct. It's so helpful to see ways other thoughtful coaches have worked to analyze, evaluate, and adjust the training to provide the best for their athletes.

Your athletes are lucky to have you.

Keep up the insightful posts (and ignore the snipes)

Cheers!

Thanks.

It was a really fun race to watch. My girl went out with the leaders and was in the lead pack at the mile. The next time I saw them, a girl who was on nobody's radar had taken a huge lead. By the 2 mile point it looked like that girl was going to be a runaway winner.

My girl was back in about 14th. On a large hill before the 2 mile point, she started moving up. By the 2 mile point she had made it to 12th, and was just about to latch on to a pack of girls that contained runners 3-11 in the race. As the girls were taking off onto the final mile, I thought my girl was looking pretty good and could end up top 10.

The way the course is laid out, I couldn't catch up to the runners at any other point during the race (I got stuck on the wrong side of the course and couldn't get across for a couple of minutes while everyone was passing the 2 mile point. After the tail end of the pack went through, I started jogging up to the finish line. I heard the race announcer say that my girl had moved all the way up to 3rd. I couldn't believe it. That move really took it out of her. I next caught sight of her with about 300m to go and she was completely out of gas. She still had 3rd, but looked like she was barely moving. With about 100 to go, a pack of 3 runners caught her. My girl tried to kick, moving back into third and holding it until only 5m before the finish.

Up front, the same type of thing happended. The underdog who had taken a huge lead at the 2 mile point tied up somewhere in the last mile and was caught with about 150 to go. It was a really gutsy race by a girl who, time wise coming in, shouldn't have even been in the top 10.

Are you talking about Theresa Devine? We in Marin county knew she would come up big...

By the way congrats, she beat some very good runners/ran faster than some very good runners. Could be very good the next 2 yrs!

wellll? wrote:

Are you talking about Theresa Devine? We in Marin county knew she would come up big...

Yes. Devine ran like a champ yesterday. It was good to see, because she had been struggling this season. I understand she had some low iron issues. Her time from section only indicated somewhere around 19:15-19:20 at state. 18:06 is a great result for her. The way she raced was even more impressive. After the mile she just grabbed the race by the throat.

Following CoachB's advice, during February, my daughter ran her best two cross country races for the season. (UK)

Looks good to me

Too many on here think you can get good on just steady running & a couple of strides

anopion:

Interesting how Coach B used a form of training I recommended and his runner performed exceptionally well!

Rather than worry about whether or not a person recommeding training has enough high level coaching experinece, which I assume you relate to either coaching D1 runners or open elite runners, why not be open to good training ideas? It doesn't matter what letters people have behind their name; a good idea or method is a good idea or method. Coaches of top runners are not necessarily the most competent coaches; often their are coaches at lower ranks, such as high school coaches, who develop runners better. I'll take a Pat Tyson or Joe Newton or most coaches who have fast collegiate talent.

To Coach B: Congratulations: your runners performed very well!

Have a good day!

Tinman

Tinman wrote:

Interesting how Coach B used a form of training I recommended and his runner performed exceptionally well!

Tinman

We are not worthy....we are not worthy....:). I think that a lot of my training ideas mirror yours. Cheers to you as well.

TGMCP, thanks for the shout out.

I'm not the distance coach at HHS and am no longer the head coach (resigned last year so I could have more time with the fam, but still coach the hurdlers and vaulters) so I don't really have any influence over our distance program. The girl we've been discussing soloed a 5:18 for 1600m last week on the dirt on a windy day. She is well ahead of last year's fitness. I must give a nod to Mr. CoachK (not the guy from Duke) for that.

I hope she can hold it. She came from basketball in late feb with zero distance base. I've had bad experience with kids improving quickly from zero base and then flaming out prior to the end of the season. We shall see. Personally, I would like to have seen more tempo in her training during the end of feb and all of march. We will wait and see.

Tinman wrote:

anopion:

Interesting how Coach B used a form of training I recommended and his runner performed exceptionally well!

Like I wrote earlier; "With Tinman approach you can get good but not optimum results, in the long run." Exceptionally well? No, you´re just full of yourself.

18.06 5k isn´t really "exceptionally well"

take your pills wrote:

18.06 5k isn´t really "exceptionally well"

Hello Mr. H8er: Please read the thread before jumping in with random criticism. Your enthusiasm to jump in and make other people look bad has caused you to miss a few points. Theresa Devine ran 18:06. My girl ran 18:25, which based on her PR of 19:12 could be considered running "exceptionally well". Not everybody can put up times like Jordan Hasay, Mel Lawerence, or Julia Stamps on the woodward course. Those girls were all running at or below 18 minutes before even beginning high school. My athlte had never broken 22 minutes before HS and didn't break 20 until the end of her freshman year. I think my athltes have every right to feel pretty good about a 47 second PR in the biggest meet of the year.

Bump to future.

Track of 2010: Ran 5:02 at our section meet to place 3rd. That was a 9 second PR. At state ran 5:09 in a wind tunnel in the heats on Friday. Missed qualifying by two places. Still, it was her second fastest time ever.

Summer 2010 and Cross Country: Built a very good base (compared to previous years) during the summer....just over 500 total miles. Won a couple of pretty good invitationals, ran flat at State taking 8th place. I think we went too hard during the middle part of the season. She was running times that were well ahead of where she was in 2009 CC, but couldn't jump to higher levels at the end.

Played B-ball again over the winter then opened the season with a 5:23, 2:25 double after about 2 weeks of training. She loves to hurdle and has a pr of 48.1. She has run in the 49s 3 times this season on dirt tracks in dual meets directly after running the 2 mile (the girls 2 mile happens in the middle of the meet in our league). The goal has been to improve her ability at 3200m so that she might have a shot at running the USATF junior steeplechase in June. 3200 has never been a good race for her. She had a PR of 11:55 coming into the season. She has taken 3 good efforts at the distance this season, running 11:39, 11:05 and 11:05. The latest 11:05 was last night and the other 11:05 was 2 weeks ago.

She most certainly wants to be a miler for the remainder of the HS season, as that is how she primarily thinks of herself. She has gotten better about the mid race slump thing, but is not completely over it. We are thinking that the emphasis this season on preparing for 3200m competition will make the mile seem short and easy by comparison. The goal the rest of the way this season is to run 4:55-4:57. She ran 5:16 by her self on a blustery day on 4/3.

Our distance coach and I spent the drive back from the meet last night discussing a training schedule that will take her up to the state meet and get her ready to run PR's.

If you have read the thread, you have an idea of what kind of things have worked well for her in the past.....high frequency, low volume repetition work over the last 2-3 weeks have gone pretty well. We haven't had a lot of success with higher intensity intervals during the last month. We did that a little last fall during cross and as I wrote earlier, she was really flat at state.

Here is the basic outline I think I will follow. I'm a little concerned about the next few days being too hard. We can easily take stuff out

4/30: 11:05 for 3200m PR by .17 seconds

5/1: 2 miles easy, stretch

5/2: 1.5 wu. 4 x (4 x 200) @ 34-36, 30 sec between reps, 5 min between sets, 1.0 cd

5/3: 3-4 easy + strides

5/4: League Dual Meet: 1600, 3200, 300h, 800

5/5: 6 miles easy

5/6: 4 easy + drills + 5 x hurdle up and back

5/7: 2 mwu, 4x200 + 1 x 1200 + 2 x 500

5/8: 5-6 easy

5/9: 2 mwu + 3 x 400 @ 72-74, 1 mcd

5/10: 3 easy + 4 x 150 stride

5/11: TVL Finals. 4 events

5/12: Off

5/13: 6 Easy

5/14: 2 mwu, 3 x 600 @ 1:48-1:51, full recovery

5/15: 3-4 easy

5/16: 4 easy + 4 x 200 @ 33-34, 200 recovery jog

5/17: Divisional Trials meet 800 (maybe run leg on 4x4 relay)

5/18: 2-3 easy + strides

5/19: Divisional Finals meet 1600, 800 (goal sub 5:10, 2:18)

5/20: 2-3 easy recovery

5/21: 3 x 1600 tempo @ 6:20 1 min recovery

5/22: 4 easy + strides

5/23: 2 mwu, 3 x 600 @ 1:48 – 1:51, full recovery

5/24: 3 easy

5/25: 3 easy + 4 x 200 @ 33-34, 200 recovery jog

5/26: 2 mwu, 4 x 150 stride

5/27: Section Masters meet. 1600 Goal is to Q for state. Sub 5:00