Long run as percentage of miles

malmo

RE: Todd Williams uncut-training question 12/18/2007 3:34PM - in reply to R.L. Scribner Reply | Return to Index | Report Post

It's simple: the long run is the single most overrated aspect of athletic training for running. Most runners put a disproportionate emphasis on one run compared to their overall weekly mileage, when they'd be better off concentrating on the 6 other days of the week before they ever throw in long runs.

[quote]The Ghost of Will Freeman wrote:

"The Tue hard day, the Fri Kenyan run (every other week) and the Sun long run are the critical components. The other days are used to “restore” the body."

[quote]

But if you read on it says:

"I believe strongly in a long run day each week. Ours is on Sundays and is from 11-18 miles depending on the runner and is always at Rock Creek State Park on rolling trails."

Since 11 is my daily "clock punching" run, I guess I do a long run every day. I would say if 11 a "long run" you don't believe in long runs, you believe in relatively low weekly mileage. I consider a long run to be something significantly longer than I run every day. I am sure that more than 11 is the norm for Freeman and I bet in real-world terms, his team goes 15-16 about as often as I do now (although I too was a slave to the Sunday 1:45-2:30 run from about 1995-2007).

There is good stuff at that link, though. I like this advice:

"We have intensive days on Tue and Fri of the off-week and Tue and Sat (race) of the race week."

I hated doing Tues/Thurs/Sat hard days in college and ran better after college when I went to Tues/Fri and only Tuesday when racing Saturday. If I am running decent mileage - one day between workouts is not enough. I think less frequent higher quality workouts are better than more frequent, lower quality ones.

Alberto Salazar

10 weeks, average daily mileage is 14.2 miles. Average long run is 13.0 miles. Longest run is 15 miles.

Todd Williams

10 weeks, average daily mileage is 14.2 miles. Average long run is 10.2 miles. Longest run is 12 miles.

(Mark Nenow Pretty much the same thing as I recall.)

From that thread a summary from Alberto Salazars training log in 1978

70 days, 130 sessions

60 doubles

10 singles

21.5% = percentage of individual runs 10 miles or longer (28 out of 130 efforts averaging 11.85 miles, range 10-15 miles)

14.2 miles = avg daily mileage

2.7 miles = stdev

15 miles = mode (28x), 14(11x), 16(7x), 13(5x), 12(5x), 18(4x)

69 = number of AM runs (including Sunday long run)

7.1 miles = avg AM run

6.2 miles = avg AM run (not including long run)

61 = number of PM runs

8.3 miles = avg PM run

9 long runs (13,11,13,14,14,13,15,12,12)

13.0 miles = avg long run

15 miles = longest run. One occurrence.

Long runs = 91% of the avg daily mileage

Long runs = 13.1% of the avg weekly mileage

FROM THE TODD WILLIAMS TRAINING THREAD

Weekly mileage for the 10 weeks leading up to 1995 Gate River Run: 110-102-91-86-93-105-105-95-103-106* race week

Long runs for the 10 weeks leading up to 1995 Gate River Run: 12-8-10-10-8-11-12-10-11-10

Specific workouts: Each week I would do a track workout, hill workout and a faster road run, with some samples of those below. For each workout I ran a 3-4 mile warm-up at a sub 6:00 pace, followed by 6-150m strides and a 2 mile warm-down.

Key workouts:

1. 4xmile@4:15 with 3 minutes recovery jogs between each mile

2. Hills – 10x380 meter hill with jog back down for recovery between each

3. 8 x 1000m @2:45 with 200m jog recovery between each 1000m

4. 1600m – 1200m--800m-400m@:60-:61 pace with 400m jog recovery between each

5. 5 miles HARD road run (4:45 pace) then back to the track for 4 x 800m @2:02 – 2:04 with 400m jog recovery

6. 20 x 200m @ :30 with 200m jog recovery

7. 6 mile HARD road run then back to the track for a 4:08 mile

I ran twice a day every day, with my pace on each run never slower than 6 minutes per mile. At the completion of each afternoon run I would do 8 x 150m strides at mile race pace.

Dean Martin wrote:

Is it supposed to be a secret or something?

If you have a point to make then make it. Otherwise, shut the hell up.

Until then, I sure as hell at least know who Malmo is so I'm gonna go with him, thanks.

He doesn't post here often, but he is assumed to be someone of relevence. I'm not going to post the name here because I am not 100% of his identity. But if it is who it has been suggested, then I would definitely listen to his advice.

The brightest bulb wrote:

He doesn't post here often, but he is assumed to be someone of relevence. I'm not going to post the name here because I am not 100% of his identity. But if it is who it has been suggested, then I would definitely listen to his advice.

I weight anonymous posters here very lightly. If no one knows who you are, then why do you expect anyone to care?

Wizard of Oz wrote:

I weight anonymous posters here very lightly. If no one knows who you are, then why do you expect anyone to care?

Exactly! That's why I always use my real name on every post.

coach K = JK?

Dean Martin wrote:

Exactly! That's why I always use my real name on every post.

Ha ha. Very funny. Not me (or the real Deano) but funny.

runner39 wrote:

coach K = JK?

That would not impress me compared to Malmo. They must have meant someone else.

16% - but I'm doubling

runner39 wrote:

coach K = JK?

Then I would DEFINITELY ignore what he is saying. He hasn't coached any world class runners, and the one runner who got close did make vast improvements but got injured because of his idiotic 180 mile weeks.

Sample Week of Training for Weldon Johnson

Week of April 1-7, 2000

Total Weekly Mileage 172

Please note: Unless noted, the altitude of all runs is 7,000 feet. This is a pretty standard week for Weldon. Maybe a little more mileage than normal.

Sunday

AM 7 Miles

PM 15 Miles from 8000-10000 feet

Total for Day - 22 Miles

Monday

AM 7 Miles

PM 3 Mile WU 10*1000 with 30 seconds rest @ 65 second quarter pace 5 Mile cd @ 3500 feet

Total for Day - 21 miles

Tuesday

AM 7 Miles

PM 17 Miles

Total for Day - 24 Miles

Wednesday

AM 7 Miles

PM 3 WU 6*800 @ 2:00 with 2 minutes rest @ Phoenix 5 Mile CD

Night Run 5 Miles

Total For Day - 23 Miles

Thursday

AM 7 Miles

PM 17 Miles with Strides included @ 10000 feet

Total for Day - 24 Miles

Friday

AM 7 Miles

PM 15 Miles with 12 miles & 5:05 pace on Treadmill in Bathroom with Shower on high to get used to heat & humidity. 75 degrees with 95 % humidity

Total for Day - 22 Miles

Saturday

Long run of 35 miles with 5 miles at end at quicker pace

Total Weekly Mileage 172

FU*KING RETARDED

K for Kempainen? That would get my attention.

Except Kampainen is a doctor, not a coach unless he changed professions.

And I suppose you are the real "Wizard of Oz"?As a general rule, with some limited exceptions, no one knows who anyone is here, regardless of who they say they are. The authentication mechanism here is not that strong.I always judged what was written in the "Message" box by its own merits, rather than what someone types in the "Name" box.Anyone can type anything in the "Name" box -- and they can even "Register" any name that they want, with any free e-mail account they want.I can't imagine giving false weight to any idea, because of what someone was able to type in the "Name" box.Worse yet, is being arrogant a reason not to listen to someone? Just because you know your right doesn't mean you're not right.I listen to people depending on what I think of them, or their ideas, not of what they think of themselves. I can't imagine letting someone else control my behavior that way.

Wizard of Oz wrote:

I weight anonymous posters here very lightly. If no one knows who you are, then why do you expect anyone to care?

Mr. Ray wrote:

I always judged what was written in the "Message" box by its own merits, rather than what someone types in the "Name" box

So what you're really saying is that you weight posts on the basis that they say what you want to hear, regardless of anonymity or credibility of the poster?

Barring facts, proof, etc, the only thing that gives an opinion weight is the identity, accomplishments and reputation person stating it.

Everyone knows that Malmo is George Malley. That is not in question, even though he posts as "malmo." Being George Malley, given what he has accomplished, his opinions about training carry far more weight than yours, mine and the Wiz's put together.

Someone has tried to put forth Coach K as someone whose opinion should also matter more. Yet when pressed as to why, they pulled a disappearing act. Since Coach K has not been shown to be anyone other than just another LetsRun poster, his opinion carries no more weight than anyone elses.

(I am pretty sure that the Wiz does not expect anyone to think that he is the real Wizard of Oz since that is a fictional character. Likewise, I did not expect anyone to actually think I was the real Dean Martin, primarily since Dean Martin has been dead for years. I sincerely hope you did not think otherwise)

Nice try, but I said I judge a message by its own merits.I pretty much assume anonymity for all the messages, as I don't know anyone here, not even malmo.Bald assertions, or conclusions, lacking any required support hold very little weight. Independent support helps.I won't claim though, that I'm immune to my own bias, so credibility and saying what I want to hear might help a post slip through my filters unnoticed.But I like to think I keep an open mind, and tend to push people who contradict my thinking, to support their ideas better. I like to think if they do a good enough job, I will change my mind.But if I'm clever enough to impersonate Geb, who wants to give more weight to what I say about marathons, and what does that say about them?

Wizard of Oz wrote:

Mr. Ray wrote:

I always judged what was written in the "Message" box by its own merits, rather than what someone types in the "Name" box

So what you're really saying is that you weight posts on the basis that they say what you want to hear, regardless of anonymity or credibility of the poster?

Dean Martin wrote:

Everyone knows that Malmo is George Malley.

For real?!?!?!?!?!

Who's George Malley?

[quote]kudzurunner wrote:

I don't think there's any cut and dried rule. In the summer/fall of 2007 I averaged 50-55 mpw. After running a "test" marathon in early September (3:39) and taking one recovery week, I then continued the same mpw average and ran LRs of:

18

18

19

14 (incl. 10 mile race)

20

16 (incl. 10 mile MP run)

22

I felt strong and controlled at the end of that 22 and ran a total of 54 miles that week.

The following Sunday I set my masters half-marathon PR (1:31) and felt great.

Ran 21 the following week, including a hard 12 mile tempo run, and pushed myself over the edge. My marathon three weeks later was a 3:30:59.

Some runners respond well to LRs that are a higher percentage of the weekly average. I'm one of those. But I jog 3-4 miles very slowly four days of the week, always take two of those days after every long run. My usual year-round LR is 14-15 miles (around 2:05), and I'll regularly notch that sort of LR when I'm averaging 40-45 mpw. I'm 50 and I'm racing better now than I ever have.

When I'm training for 5K/10K, I never run more than 15, and have better success with 14, pushing a little harder.

When I'm training for half marathons, I'll toss some 17-18 milers into the mix, and perhaps average 45-50 mpw.

It really doesn't matter to me what I'm "supposed" to be doing. This works well for me. I never feel overtrained, sluggish, unmotivated. I enjoy my training and racing./quote]

Wow, how unmotivating. thanks for all the useless information.