My Team Makes Me Question Whether I Know Anything About Running

I do think it is interesting that kids running 50 miles per week and racing regularly wouldn't be getting faster just from increased fitness and racing experience/work. Your training seems good with the generally agreed upon skipping VO2. Maybe they are indeed overworking/under recovering.

it sounds like you don't know much and the athletes are suffering from your poor coaching

Speaking of pace, what distance are you doing?

I have found with my young athletes that having them do Flying Kilometers at or just below goal race paces for anything from the 1.6k to 5k have helped them (1) get used to that pace, leg turnover, and speed and (2) provide confidence that they *can* hit those speeds. I usually try and aim for either 1K under or 1K over the distance depending on the kid and their current fitness works. So, for a 5K XC racer, anywhere from 4 to 6 1K intervals.

Also, I give them anywhere from 2 to 5 minute breaks in between, once again depending on the kid and where their fitness/confidence are.

I'm about to be doing this for this season—we haven't yet, but it's now that time. We'll see if it pays off like it did in track last Spring.

Anyhow, it is an idea. I find the 1K reps help break it out and make the math easier for kids. It also kicks them out of their "minutes per mile" mindset, and focusing more on the workout. Also, it's approachable—2.5 laps? Not so bad.

It also allows some checkins with the athlete. Are they feeling like their legs are dead? No bounce? Having some respiratory issues? You get 2.5 laps and then a break to discuss.

Anyhow, I have found—so far—this to be helpful with the mental side of pacing. Both the "ah, this is what it feels like" bit, and the "oh, I can do this!" bit.

Still, might be something to just mixing it up. You have to get the speed and pacing work in there, so maybe some work on that.

Good luck!

I would guess that your kids legs are dead, with 10-12 400s and 6 800s. Drop the load in a couple of weeks, and they will fly with fresher legs.

Let's see Paul Allens training plan

Aside from their performance in races, what about your kids has changed this season?
Are there any variables for this year over past years, whether or not they point to a specific problem?

Never mind if they've "done" the miles and workouts... are they going well? Do you have a bunch of new kids or is this mostly the same group you had last season? You stay "stagnant"... are the returning kids running better or worse times in workouts, let alone the "stagnant" races?

Did the courses or competition change this season, or is it all the same? The mix may be decent, but is it more or less than last year or past years? Are they racing more or less? Is the caliber of competition the same?

I realize this thread is now 3 pages and you may have answered some of this in follow-up, but I'm only asking to give some of these variables some thought. You may have taken for granted that some of them are irrelevant when they might be relevant.

After our latest meet, I feel a lot like the OP. I have come to the conclusion that it is the team culture that needs to be changed, not the training plan. You have to have a culture that desires success and not mediocrity, or you will be kicking against the wall instead of improving performance.

There is something "off" with this year's team.. They all seem to be "people that show up to XC practice" but not "a team." We have a weird mix of personalities this year and I think that's what makes it seem so disjointed.

We didn't have a race last week so we got in a LR, I cut the V02M day and turned it into something shorter and peppier, turned the tempo intervals into a Progression Run. We'll see how it goes Saturday.

You, as the coach, are taking each race (and the early ones in particular) far too seriously. Presumably the last race (State?) of the season is what you are aiming for, and your program has been established with that in mind. Now you are blaming the kids and "culture"? If you had any kids doing NXN or Footlocker - that is as late as mid-December - then why are you even worrying about September?. You remind me of a local HS coach who basically goes from workout to workout, and focuses entirely on that (as if that is the answer) and not the bigger picture - which he doesn't see.

Your season is so many weeks long. If your kids haven't done a good base over the summer, then you cannot treat them as if they have - so you need to account for that in their training, and those that have need to be separated (even if only in your mind) as their plan needs to be different. A base (even a short one) needs to be in place. if your season was 3 months (Aug, Sept, Oct) or even 2 months (9 weeks), then that base of 3-4 weeks needed to get done, then 3-4 weeks of specific work, then 3-4 weeks of RP to taper. If that season was ideally June through November (so 6 months) then of course ALL the elements could have been developed slowly and properly. Then it comes down to the individual - the 800m kid is less likely to be able to handle the volume of the 3200m kid (for obvious reasons), so don't treat them as if they are the same, even if both run 3M/5k for XC. It can get somewhat complicated with different kids bringing different things to the table - a good coach can figure this out as they understand the bigger picture. A poor coach throws everyone into the same pot and assumes results will come from that - and doesn't understand it when either individuals or the team is struggling. You should have a google doc or excel sheet for every kid you coach, tracking the planned program vs the actual program, anything less than that is insufficient. Ideally you have an individual program for each kid, but that can be unwieldy and onerous but it can be done - I do it, even if for a few kids I wonder why I bother.

exactly

if he has mediocre kids running 50 mi/wk that might be half his problem.

If the team is "horrible" they aren't going to State, NXN or Footlocker. In the grand scheme of things most teams don't go to those meets, it's a selective few. It's OK to take meets in September seriously and worry about the kids results. Isn't that one of the coaches' jobs is to figure out how to have the kids get better results?

first, have you even talked with the kids about their feedback or are you just sitting there in a white coat doing preplanned workouts then looking at the equivalent of the clipboard criticizing the statistical outputs and the fact it's not gone to your plan? maybe this group needs a different plan. maybe this group isn't as serious. maybe this group needs more fun. don't ask us. ask them how the season is going.

second, did you internally scout people from the TF distance team or the other sports? like my school would be still trying to get that fast guy from baseball to join the relay on up to the end of the season. the astros started this season awful but churned the team with new players from AAA. i think sometimes coaches are so up their own tookus about rewarding doing their workouts they ignore help might be down the hall, if they cut the kids slack for being new.

third, is this you complaining they aren't great, or have only improved so much, or is this they are literally flat since race 1? if they are flat since race 1 that suggests to me you overcooked them in august. they might respond to backing off.

without athlete feedback it's hard to know if they are sick of you or unmotivated. if they are sick of you personally, drop the criticism, drop the routine practices, and make it fun.

if they are unmotivated but willing, take them to the track a few days where they can be monitored. i can goof off around campus where you can barely see me. but that only works if they are sincere but lazy as opposed to sick of the tyrant. if they are sick of you then they can slack and sulk anywhere, even under your nose.

fourth, if you are just the XC coach, maybe consult the TF results for the returning kids. did you get the TF distance kids? if not go find them. or maybe you did and it's just a slow group, as evident from TF times. at which point your job isn't to win area so much as coach them to some degree of improvement and happiness. and that might involve talking to them personally and figuring out the issues. a lot of the workout fetish on here assumes highly motivated already successful runners that you are just trying to maximize and chase big successes and college.

but if they really haven't been athletes much, your job may be more to find their internal athlete, their speed, their toughness. the kids playing team sports since age 5 know this stuff. but not someone who starts running age 14. kind of like we had this guy on our college soccer team who was super fit and hard working, just sloppy. i might need fitness work if i let myself out of shape in the offseason. but he probably needs technical work. horses for courses. and train to what those kids need. not what some good year with already fast kids needs.

last, nothing says you can't recruit from PE classes, the TF team, or other sports, hoops, soccer. scout around the school. i believe schools can have down years, but i also think there can be talent sitting around someplace untapped, too. if they stink that bad and don't care then sorry, any in shape soccer or hoops player can probably run that fast in their sleep on their baseline training.

that and my TF coach would grab the fast kid from the baseball team for a week if he thought he'd help our relay compete. last week of the season too. some of the barrier here can be coaches who fetishize their workouts so much it's deemed unfair to bring in someone who hasn't done them. i had a stupid hurdles coach who punted me for missing too many practices because i also did soccer -- but i was his best 300H guy at meets, and they were never any good at the event after. are you trying to win races or are you trying to aggrandize yourself and the importance of your practices?

It is kinda crazy how I post about how bad my team is, and some dude starts talking about basing the training around going to Nike Nationals (WTF?) .. We can't even place in our most local of local invitationals!

We did somewhat better today but again, not great. We had a race in very hot conditions (again) but our times overall were similar to weeks before. So probably a harder effort only to get the same result. (BTW why RD's have races starting at 11 AM is beyond me. It was brutal.)

Most bad HS runners could just go run every day, go to the races and have the same results as doing whatever workouts are tossed at them.

how good do you have to be to run 50 per week?

is it appropriate for an 18 minute runner striving to be 17? 19 striving to be 18?

What you're saying is real. but i think most teams have at least a guy or two who can handle 50 per week.

On the other end, lol@ the people here who just seem to think that every team has somebody where states or NXN is the goal race.

Many teams don't have a solid state candidate. Many more teams have a person who can hope and pray to make states, but that makes the state qualifier the goal race. Not states. For the most part, these kids are ending their season end of Oct. or very early Nov. Add in a 7-10 days of taper, and The season is winding down fast.

100%. and just that will average out to around 1.5 races (ie SUPER SPECIFIC WORKOUTS) per week.

Miles and strides in between. bada bing. that's already as much as or more than they need or can tolerate.

This is my team to the tee. One guy has hit 50M and he's a senior that has run at State every year of his HS. If my #2 & #3 runners have the race of their lives, they could possibly maybe qualify as individuals, I seriously doubt we will be able to make it as a team.

Our schedule last week

M- 6-8M progression run

Tue- easy mileage

Wed- 1M@5k pace 400 jog 2x8 @1600 400 jog 2x4 @1600 after the workout everyone was peppy and fine, nobody laying on the turf etc...

Th recovery run 5-6M

Fri 3M+ strides

Sat Race

what day is the last race of the year on, specifically?

i'm curious how much time you've got left exactly before i share more