Can we settle on a time conversion for super shoes?

Kipchoge is definitely not a heel striker.

I came up with very similar numbers from NCAA Indoor data. At the world level, it is very clear race times and depth have gotten better. M 5000 & 10000 records both in new shoes. The data is clear. As others have said, there are varying individual responders to the shoes but overall, they improve times.

I always knew Rupp was a 26:14 dude.

Super shoes are not that significant

here is what you do. you find a bunch of high level high school 1600/3200 races and you average the middle 1/3 of their times and you compare them year to year. you don't want to use the top 1/3 because they might be racing via sit/kick which may screw up the times and you also don't want to use the bottom 1/3 because there are always a few slow outlier in a race. you do this for as many big HS california track meets as you can and you come to some average.

Does training in super shoes lead to faster race times? If the faster training is all the work of the shoes is there any actual fitness gained compared to classic shoes? This would be ignoring the benefits of getting comfortable and efficient in the super shoes before racing in them.

it is best to do all your race pace workouts in your racing shoes. if you use normal trainers for race pace workouts, you'll automatically not run at race pace during a race. as for speed or endurance track workouts, normal trainers are fine because you don't wanna wear out your spikes.

I see your point but here's another thing:

True story- When I was in high school we had these Nike's that we all wore. The nylon upper would come unglued from the sole. We would staple them together to get through practice.

The training shoes we wore were less supportive than the minimalist shoes are now.

What's the conversion for that?

How much faster would the 15 year old me be if I ran now in regular training and racing shoes?

It's the evolution of technology and we live with it.

i sometimes train and race barefoot, it is just logical from a speed perspective because you aren't adding weight to literally the worst part of your body, the part of your body that is swinging back and forwards the most.

i run reasonably fast and people say when they see my times, imagine how much faster he could run in shoes. but i race slower in shoes, even in the supershoes. there is a considerable performance benefit.

the reasons why elites don't do it is because recovery time is longer, particularly for calves and achilles area; they wouldn't be able to run enough miles every week even with well-conditioned muscles. i have found the same when actually racing - a 42k marathon is too long for me barefoot, the muscles are stressed too much. a 21k and anything below is fine. when i run a 42k in supershoes, my legs feel fine after the race because the supershoes provide so much foam cushioning. but dragging all that weight around will still have slowed me down, maybe by about 30 seconds an hour.

anyway when you are stressing your calves in the low profile shoes, like any muscle workout, the muscle grows back stronger and over time you can run longer and further and faster. i have found i have much stronger calves than other runners around me, this is noticeable when going up hills in a race, I will overtake a bunch of runners because my calves and achilles have more bounce in them. It also means I can excel in trail races (wearing shoes obviously).

for me i run barefoot about twice a week and in shoes 3 or 4 days a week. i am not at a stage where I can run barefoot at reasonable intensity every day.

i believe everybody should be training if not barefoot then in low profile shoes at least once a week.

Good post.

This past spring I raced a half marathon in VaporFly Version 2’s. I was really pushing at the end of the race to try and catch a guy that looked like he could be in my age group. In the process, about a 100m from the finish line, I passed a considerably younger guy wearing Vibram Five Fingers. As I went into a final sprint for the finish line (as best as I could at that point), I heard this rather loud rapid putter-patter; it was the guy wearing the Vibram FF’s, who came back and nipped me at the line.

Definitely yes.

lf they weren’t wearing super shoes they will be eating your dust.

If you change into a pair of super shoes and find yourself still slower than them, then that’s only because you are a non-responder and they on the other hand are shamelessly responding.

The other side-of-the-coin to this anecdote is a friend of mine took up running ~10 years ago back during the minimalist craze. After some research, he bought a pair of Vibram Five Fingers. Soon thereafter, he joined me on a group road run, and unfortunately left it with a serious foot injury.

I take GREAT comfort in knowing that anyone casting ageist commentary like the above will be, in the veritable blink of an eye, old. Isn't it going to be great when YOU are the one being treated to snide remarks?

Shoes improve, but so do knowledge and training techniques. If we had no "super shoes", times would still be improving as more runners and coaches have access to high level training techniques. There is also the competitive aspect, when a runner sees their competitors going faster, they realize they have to get to that level also. And they have more opportunities with more high level races, some of them designed for faster times.

It all adds up to performance improvements, and the shoes are likely a part of it but not even close to the whole story.

There's different ways to look at it. People with knee issues or shin splints often have them because the high heel shoes they wear allow them to extend their gait too much, or to overpronate. Running barefoot or in low profile shoes encourages/forces you to run correctly.

But if you go all the way through childhood wearing normal shoes every day (typically with a 1-2 inch heel supporting the achilles tendon), and continue that into your 20s/30s and then suddenly start doing intense exercise frequently with no heel, you are going to get a.) stress fractures in the bones of your foot, b.) achilles tendonitis, and c.) very sore calves.

It's like anything new you have to ease into it. Eccentric heel drops to build strength. Massage or water jets to increase blood flow to the area after tough workouts. Don't drastically increase mileage. Run with a midfoot strike not forefoot. Eat well, sleep well etc.

From the article: "a 4% average energetic savings observed should translate to ~ 3.4% improvement in running velocity at marathon world record pace"; there are other factors at play, and this article's sources also discuss the relationship of "energetic cost" and "metabolic cost" to running velocity.

I lack the knowledge to interpret this info well, I'm not diving that deeply into the data, and I might make errors in interpreting the data anyway. Nevertheless, it seems that if Kipchoge were to experience the highest level of effect from the shoes (6.26%), we'd have to accept that he'd have run > 2:07 on his WR day without them.

I don't doubt that the shoes provide a benefit, nor that any number of his characteristics make him a solid responder to the shoes. I just doubt that the effect is that strong for him.

Kipchoge ran 2:03 is non-carbon shoes.

Only about 1:40 improvement

Bekele the same

This gives the reality:

en.wikipedia.org

Marathon world record progression

This list is a chronological progression of record times for the marathon. World records in the marathon are now ratified by World Athletics, the international governing body for the sport of athletics. Kenyan Eliud Kipchoge...

Link:en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marathon_world_r...

Were Kipsang and Kimmetto better than Kipchoge.?

No but they ran similar times to Kipchoge and Bekele without the shoes around 2:03.