Mr. Renato Canova: Could You Please Answer a Question About Effective Ways to Improve the Lactate Threshold?

I have seen many times how too much hard training damages a runners confidence. There is nothing like good race results for improving confidence.

Athletes who do a fantastic workout often go into a race with unrealistic expectations. As long as they are honest with themselves about what went wrong in a race, then there isn't a problem. How we handle pressure, expectation and failure is a huge part of our preparation, that a good Coach should be able to help with.

Wello

I send you another post, because i se that the doubt subsists in most of you - mainly because you are used to relate pace intensities or to physiologic zones or individual PB distances. I don´t. By race pace i mean no more no less than the even pace fr the estimate pace in the event that you elect to be your goal target - season target or next run target.

Thus if you estimate that your talent or shape condition or your performance in that goal target 800m run that´s 1:44 for any set distance (longer or shorter) that you run in that 1:44 event 800m even pace that´s race pace. you do 20X200m in 26sec average - that´s race pace. You do 3X600 in 1:18 that´s race pace. All paces faster than that - no matter in what season phase are faster than race pace from just a little faster 25.5 for 200m to maximum distance pace. All paces slower that are slower than race pace. Independently from what is the number of sets, the total set distance covered, each set unit distance.

Thus if Rui target goal season that´s 3:30, when he is doing 13.5 for 100m he is doing faster than race pace as when he is doing 2X1000m in 2:18 in a late season test control that´s faster than race pace in my concept. Independently of what are the physiologic requirements to do so.

Thus when Mamede did 62s-64s if that´s for a 1000m goal target he is doing noi more no less than faster than race pace, despite that´s during the winter build up season. But you are right, eventually the pace can be faster when season improves - that i agree, or don´t. Actually we are coming to the conclusion that you atek mote benefits by training faster than race pace, but very closer to that (even in short classic reps 300m to 600m) but shortening the interval pause and take that active. That´s the best pace support - just a little faster than race pace. Renato reveals us that detail when he says what 55sec have to do with a marathon - nothing - or 20X200 for 27sec for those that are no able to do more than 14:50 in a 5000m race? Ther´s no training transfer really !

Mamede that was 20 years ago his 27:17. That´s portuguese training but old school. Since then we did some progress in training concepts i hope so, but actually we have no more talents like Lopes and Mamede.

The question for me is that one: Rui Silva don´t know what´s lactate. His coach, that´s my friend and that have a Ph. Doc in physical education he miss and ignores completly all that scientific stuff while designing a Rui Silva schedule. He trains in simplicity. Rui coach asks to very basic questions; why are we able to run in that one pace. the answer that´s obvious, because WE ARE ABLE to run in that pace, and nothing more, independently of what max.VO2, ro in what lactate mmol Rui Silva runs or in what pace Rui are in anaerobic, Lt, or what are the aerobic amount or the anaerobic amount that Rui uses in a 1500m Olympic final.

But he knows Rui better than anyone else. He knows what are weak and strong in Rui. So, he design a schedule according the season and pace principles, nothing more really.

Thus he takes in consideration in what paces, the race pace, the slower ones than race pace and the faster ones than race pace may Rui train in the specifics.

Now, what can i say to you? I just try to do the best description of that process.

so after finishing reading Ulysses i can go back to the hard stuff here.

A 1500m race is different to a 5000m race what is different to a Marathon, no big science.

And yes it is simple and you dont need to know any %Vo2max statistics at all, its technique as you describe it, I#m just trying to explain what most runners are already doing because of experience and not by science.

Of course you need to train Race Pace or faster than that if you prepare for a 1500m but how long?how much?

In one point i totally agree with Lydiard:the development of lactate resitence is limited its not like the endurance that can be developed over years and years with the right training.What if someone is racing 800-1500 and 5k what is his Race Pace and what is faster than Race Pace?

What is Ruis Race Pace in the Winter, 1500?3k10k?

So Silva is doing 400s under 60s the whole year?

May be the reason why he hasnt improved much in the last couple of years.

For El-Guerrouj 1500m pace was race pace in the last years but did he train Race Pace in the winter or the spring?

No need to for that, he starts with 5k-10k pace repetitions going a bit more intensive 3k pace when doing indoor and then finally lactate tolerance in the last couple of weeks before competition.So how can he run 3:26 if he has trained Race Pace only for like 1-2 months?

1500m pace training doesnt give you endurance or only little bit but helps to battle the acid in a 800-1500-5k and to a little degree 10k race, thats the aim of such a session.

So Carlos Lopes according to you was never training 1500m Race Pace but manages to run 3:40 with bad 400m speed, how is that possible?

I rememeber pictures of El G. doing 20 x 300 starting at 45 and ending in 43 (7:10 3000m) in the middle of winter. It was like January. Granted this is not his 1500m pace but is sure isn't far off (42 = 3:30).

Purdue Grad wrote:

I rememeber pictures of El G. doing 20 x 300 starting at 45 and ending in 43 (7:10 3000m) in the middle of winter. It was like January. Granted this is not his 1500m pace but is sure isn't far off (42 = 3:30).

3k pace

I can buy that ...

thats was in March-April, they wore gloves because its still pretty cold in Ifran at this time.

1500m pace gives you specific endurance for the 1500m, which something that no other pace will do for you.

Also, the 300s in those pictures were at altitude in Ifrane, and I'm guessing even El G couldn't run 7:30 at 6,000+ ft.

Most of the reason for these is neuromuscular coordination and muscle memory at that pace.

Joe,

Are you saying that you have moved to only 2 workouts even during the Pre-Comp phase? In the handout you sent out last year, I seem to remember you having 3 workouts in the True Base and Pre-Comp phases as well as the competition phase.

If so, would you use the 800/3k - 1500m/5k+ schedule for the PC as well?

Joe:

Can you send me a copy of your mid-distance manual.

I am curious to compare notes.

Pencil in any changes you would make.

Here is my e-mail

mpplatt@aol.com

I'll mail you whatever you need for your costs Plus a little beer margin for ya.

e- wrote:

Joe,

Are you saying that you have moved to only 2 workouts even during the Pre-Comp phase? In the handout you sent out last year, I seem to remember you having 3 workouts in the True Base and Pre-Comp phases as well as the competition phase.

If so, would you use the 800/3k - 1500m/5k+ schedule for the PC as well?

e-

I do plan on changing things up the coming year for the 1500 people. Had a serious stress fracture in an athlete and another who just tanked from being overcooked, so decided to go to a schedule that alolows for increased recovery. Here's a general idea. Not written in stone, just the outline I have down as of today. I'll probably monkey with it, but not much. Gonna try not to out think myself this year. I can hear my wife right now saying "yeah, right.":

1/1-3/1. 100% weekly mileage:

Week #1 & 3

Wed: 1500 pace

Sat: 5k pace

Week #2 & 4

Wed: Hill reps

Sat: Tempo effort.

Strides every Monday at a light, quick 800 effort. One long weekend run of 90-120 min, one mid week longer run at 70-90 min with 20-50 min at 75-80% 5k if feeling strong.

3/1-5/1. 85-90% weekly mileage:

Week #1 & 3

Wed: 1500 pace

Sat: 5k or 10k pace

Week #2 & 4

Wed: 800

Sat: 3k

Strides every Monday at a light, quick 800 or better type effort. One long weekend run of approx 90 min, one mid week longer run at 70-75 min with 20-50 min at 75-80% 5k.

5/1-7/1. 60-80% weekly mileage

Mon: 800 pace (105%)

Wed: 1500 pace (100%) or change of pace workouts ie 100% + 105-110%.

Sat: Best effort reps (110%+) or race if available

Need justifications or the like, let me know.

Joe

Joe what is your idea why the longrun is needed by milers?

Antonio think they are waste of time and that milers will benefit more from a recovery day, you obviously don't...

Joe (and anyone else who wants to help),

What would you switch those paces to for a 5k runner who will also run the 1500 and 3k throughout the year and then the 10k and the 5k at outdoor conference. I've got pretty good natural speed, but I got destroyed last year while doing a multi-tier approach. The problem was that we hit 400-800-1500-3k-5k pace for 5k runners. I tried to convince my coach that Horwill instructed runners to run two slower and two faster than race pace. He refused to admit it. Needless to say, we crapped out by the end of the season.

There will be compromises this season and we will do more endurance work and less anaerobic work.

How would you organize it? Maybe...5k, 10k, LT, and hills in addition to some strong aerobic running? Do you have 5k/10k guys lower paces in the next phase just like milers? What would you suggest? I will be racing at least every other weekend and probably 2 out of 3 weekends from January through early May. Should I try to convince my coach that when I race a 1500 or 3k that I can use that as my faster than race pace workout for the week? Have any of you found benefits in returning to threshold work and doing less intervals at the end of the season?

Thanks a ton for any advice.

Heras,

I'm not married to the long run, I just prefer athletes to do them from the standpoint of commitement more than the actual fitness gains if that makes any sense. The athletes I get fresh from wherever they come from usually fear certain aspects of training whether it's a double day, a tempo run, mile reps, hill reps, halves or a long run. Just having them run the darn thing consistently get's them over another mental hurdle. Usually after they get used to running them for a while we can get them running not quite so far, but have them finishing the last few miles or maybe even the last half at a decent clip, same for the mid week longer run. Just a run of 70-90 minutes where they are moving along pretty well. The easy long run, well that's just a prep for down the road when they start hammering for 10 miles of a 12-14, maybe 16 miler which is my goal for them. So early on we're doing 90-120, then we go to roughly 90 min, then keep it to say 75 min but each time we shorten the distance we monitor the pace to emphasize that we want to increase the pace on these runs.

Also, we usually aren't hammering workouts at the time we're running longer and slower (January, February) so we need to compensate a bit which we do by running more weekly miles and ideally more of it during the week in the 75-90% of 5k range and not really the slow easy miles most do when they slog through a 2 hour long run. Running modest weekly mileages in the 75-90% of 5k range seems to pay bigger dividends for milers than does heavy miles but at a jogging pace.

If I had guys doing what Silva does, which is pretty hard workouts year round or nearly all year, the long run over 90 minutes would be gone from my program too for a miler. It's just not needed, it's better to expend the mental and physical energy elsewhere. I don't think Hesch did much beyond 10 miles when he was at his 1500 best. But that 10 miles was usually done in the 54 minute or so range most weeks and there were 2 other workouts on top of that of a very solid nature.

If anything I would listen to what Antonio is saying. Problems happen when you've got an athlete running 2-3 very good quality sessions each week and try to pile a 18 miler on top of that. It's just too much for most and the potential benefirt from a weekly 18 miler doesn't offset the potential injury that may happen from overuse and if not injury, then falling into the valley of fatigue never to be seen again that season.

To try and avoid something even close to this happening again this year, we have a 90-120 minute easy run in the early months, but we cut it to 90 at a decent clip in the 2 months following when the intensity rises. When we get to the super hard stuff, well it's maybe a 12 miler. This is what Vigil has in his book too if you want to reference that and get another perspective on the issue.

Joe

Cragg Advocate wrote:

How would you organize it? Maybe...5k, 10k, LT, and hills in addition to some strong aerobic running? Do you have 5k/10k guys lower paces in the next phase just like milers? What would you suggest? I will be racing at least every other weekend and probably 2 out of 3 weekends from January through early May. Should I try to convince my coach that when I race a 1500 or 3k that I can use that as my faster than race pace workout for the week? Have any of you found benefits in returning to threshold work and doing less intervals at the end of the season?

Thanks a ton for any advice.

I sent this to a kid a few weeks ago (who still owes me a 12 pack for writing it up if you're reading this). Maybe it can help you out a bit.

MM,

Here ya go. Not written in stone, only meant as a starting point for discussion. The weeks as they are written are examples of how we do it here. Doesn't really matter how you orgainze it as long as you get everything in. For further clarrifications on stuff, read the 1500 manual first, then ask questions. Also can read the Aggie website here for details on what exactly these % mean:

8 week focusing on higher mileage, shorter reps such as 200-300, maybe 400's also hill reps. A weekly tempo at 85-90% VO2max, a steady state run or two during the week at 75-85% VO2max, a mid-week long run, a weekend long run, a recovery day, strides.

Easy week on every 4th week followed by a test of fitness like a race. 13.1 in Austin mid Feb would be a good idea. Mid January? Not sure, but you can find something

12/5-2/12:

Sun: 90-120 min easy

Mon: AM: Easy 20-40 min PM: easy 45-60 + 8 x 100 strides

Tues: 1-2 easy, 40-50 min at 75% 5k pace in month #1, 80% in month #2. Optional AM run of 20-40 easy.

Wed: AM: 20-40 easy. PM: hill reps. Sets of 3 (form, moderate, strong) jog down rec. 250-300m gradual hill on soft surface. In month #2, follow the hill reps w/ 1.5-2 miles at a moderate tempo effort (90%).

Thur: 70-90 min easy

Fri: AM: optional 20-40 easy. PM: 20-40 min easy

Sat: AM: 30-40 min at 85%. PM: 20-40 easy/

7 weeks where you drop the miles slightly, then focus on building the VO2 through a multi paced workout schedule rotating workouts in the following paces: 1500, 3k, 5k, 10k, tempo. You'd run the 10k here as a test of fitness.

2/12-3/12

Sun: 90-120 min easy

Mon: AM: Easy 20-40 min PM: easy 45-60 + 8 x 200 strides

Tues: 50-60 min easy-moderate. Optional AM run of 20-40 min.

Wed: AM: 20-40 easy. PM: week#1 & 3: 16 x 200 or 11 x 300 at 3k effort w/ 1/2 distance jog. Week #2 & 4: 12-16 x 400 at 5k w/ 200 jog.

Thur: 70-90 min easy

Fri: AM: optional 20-40 easy. PM: 20-40 min easy

Sat: AM: Week#1 & 3: Fartlek: 8-10 x 3 min on/3 off at 10k effort. Week #2 & 4: 20-30 min at 90%. PM: 20-40 easy/

3/12-4/09

Sun: 90-105 min easy

Mon: AM: Easy 20-40 min PM: easy 45-60 + 8 x 200 strides at 1500 effort

Tues: 50-60 min easy-moderate. Optional AM run of 20-40 min.

Wed: AM: 20-40 easy. PM: week#1 & 3: 8-12 x 400 at 3k effort w/ 1/2 distance jog. Week #2 & 4: 6-8 x 800 at 5k w/ 400 jog.

Thur: 60-80 min easy

Fri: AM: optional 20-40 easy. PM: 20-40 min easy

Sat: AM: Week#1 & 3: 8-10 x 1k w/ 400 at 10k effort. Week #2 & 4: 5-6 x 1600 at 10k + 2-4 sec/400 w/ 400 jog. PM: 20-40 easy/

6 week focusing on hammering some workouts to get yourself ready as a 1500/5k athete, so workouts rotating around 800, 1500, 3k and 5k, maybe some 10k pace stuff. Also racing a few 1500's to dial in race tactics.

Sun: 70-90 min easy

Mon: AM: Easy 20-40 min PM: easy 45-60 + 8 x 200 strides at 1500 effort or better

Tues: 40-60 min easy-moderate. Optional AM run of 20-40 min.

Wed: AM: 20-40 easy. PM: week#1 & 3: 6-8 x 400 at 1500 effort w/ 1/2 distance jog. Week #2 & 4: 4-6 x 800 at 3k w/ 400 jog.

Thur: 45-60 min easy

Fri: AM: optional 20-40 easy. PM: 20-40 min easy

Sat: AM: Week#1 & 3: 6 x 1k at 5k effort w/ 400 jog + 3-4 x 300 finishes with 100 jog.. Week #2 & 4: 1500 race or 1500 workout. PM: 20-40 easy/

MM, you'd take a few easy days heading into meets. Speaking of that, what is your race schedule?

Again the above isn;t in stone, it should serve as a general outline you can consider following. Balls in your court. Let me know if you have additional questions.

Joe

Joe Rubio is the man!

Thanks!

Why not have schedule of only two hard days per week? Also why is it required to have all that short fast stuff in the racing season. Daniels always says that you lose LT when cutting back. So why not run less fast short stuff and let the races take care of themselves? You will end up more tired from those short fast repeats just a few days before.

Wello

1/A 1500m race is different to a 5000m race what is different to a Marathon, no big science.

2/Of course you need to train Race Pace or faster than that if you prepare for a 1500m but how long?how much?

3/In one point i totally agree with Lydiard:the development of lactate resitence is limited its not like the endurance that can be developed over years and years with the right training.What if someone is racing 800-1500 and 5k what is his Race Pace and what is faster than Race Pace?

4/What is Ruis Race Pace in the Winter, 1500?3k10k?

5/So Silva is doing 400s under 60s the whole year?

6/May be the reason why he hasnt improved much in the last couple of years.

7/So Carlos Lopes according to you was never training 1500m Race Pace but manages to run 3:40 with bad 400m speed, how is that possible?[/quote]

Seven brief ansers to your 7/ questions

1/Don´t put hat in terms of science or against science, but facts against opinions.

2/Much earlier than 6 weeks before the peak run.

3/How many Lydiard runners did improve steadily year by year, season by season "with what you consider the right training" to do Rui Silva 3:30 (that´s you say that´s no sensible progress?

4/Before the our cross nationals or world cross that he did participate a few uyeras ago afew times that´s race pace for the cross nationals; before this last edition that he did 3000m in world indoor games that´s race pace for a 3000m run; after than he did a 5000m first serious experience that´s 5000m race pace and before that he did 1500m Olymoics thus the pace race that´s race pace for 1500 meters.

5/Actually 60sec for 400m or that even pace for 300m or 500m reps that´s a joke for Rui. so easy that are. Actually that short reps stayle he never do les than 15-20X400 in 57-58 sec with 2 minute interval standing. That´s a aworkout he can do day in-day out. Simply he don´t do, but in that 60sec pace don´t count as faster than race pace. You may come see to see for yourself.

6/…Or may be the reason he got so many olymopic medals the others loved to win. A few of them failed completely in the heats.

Rui Silva was a poor boy that quit out of school to early, use to work in a hard job from sunshine to sunrise.

Now he is very rich, he got a house in Hollywwod style, a fancy sports car a Ferrari or something else i don´t underatnd nothing of cars, he got money, he is happy, he did reach their financial running targets, all their economic tagets, a beutifull wife and a daughter, he is happy, he his very happy with World gold, silver, bronze medals, and now with that olmpic bronze he is famous in our country, he need to do an operation to cure his stomach injury but money talks and he is invited to run in North Run. Well paid. Just to be present there no matter what mediocre performance he gets. He is our country pround and joy. Just 2 men he wants to be in the olympics - Guerrouj and Lagat. How many did that by the Lydiard system?

He doesn´t fell no regrets, no sorry for not improving more than 3:30 as other feel sorry for not have his life and his sucess. he was ine of the few non-africans to win an olymoic medal in middle and long distance runs in the olympics. What that got to do with science? Nothing i would say !

Thanks a lot, Joe. So this is how I'm seeing it:

1/1-3/1:

Sunday: 90-120 min

Monday: 800m-pace strides (I'm assuming this means 100-150m?)

Wednesday: alternate 1500 specific & hill reps

Thursday: 70-90 min, 20-50 min @ 75-80% 5k.

Saturday: alternate 5k & Tempo

3/1-5/1

Sunday: 90 min

Monday: 800m-pace strides

Wednesday: alternate 1500 specific & 800 specific

Thursday: 70-90 min, 20-50 min @ 75-80% 5k.

Saturday: alternate 5k/10k & 3k

5/1-7/1

Sunday: easy

Monday: 800m specific

Wednesday: 1500 specific

Thursday: easy

Saturday: best effort/race

A further question about the strides on Mondays: are these keeping at 800-workout volume, or just a lighter workout (i.e. if you would do 1600m, would you instead just hit 800m worth of strides and call it good or go the whole 1600m?)

Thanks again.