Mr. Renato Canova: Could You Please Answer a Question About Effective Ways to Improve the Lactate Threshold?

you're touching on the energy system, getting used to the desired effort -- you work your way into in gradually. It's not a shock to the system -- it's something you're developing throughout the course of the year

Mr Joe Rubio:

I've read many of your posts in the past and you always adress the improvements of Athlete #1 and Athlete #2. Why aren't they improve from 3.39 and 3.40? If they improved so rapidly just in 2 seasons? Did they change coach or did they reach their maximum potential so fast? I know they both had quarterspeed of 50 sec, do you feel it's impossible for them to improve even more given that speed.

Heras wrote:

Mr Joe Rubio:

I've read many of your posts in the past and you always adress the improvements of Athlete #1 and Athlete #2. Why aren't they improve from 3.39 and 3.40? If they improved so rapidly just in 2 seasons? Did they change coach or did they reach their maximum potential so fast? I know they both had quarterspeed of 50 sec, do you feel it's impossible for them to improve even more given that speed.

Heras,

Athlete #1 had a goal of running in the 2000 Trials and he narrowly missed it by .10 seconds. He retired shortly following.

Athlete #2. After 2001 when he ran 3:40 and 13:58 he's run progressively more and more workouts on his own and done his own program. He trains with our group occassionally, but by and large he follows his own training outline.

Not sure if they could have run faster, but I believe #2 can still run very fast if he trained with the singular focus he showed in 2001. Even with his 53 speed I believe he's a 3:35 runner in a 30:04 body. I think anyone who saw him win Cardinal Invite in 2001 in 3:40 with his still standing 300 PR of 41 would agree.

Joe

Thanks for your answer Joe!

3.35 is very hard for a guy with 53 speed, considering another 53-guy named Bob Kennedy only managed 3.38 and 3.56 mile. But I don't think he trained specific for the mile when he ran those times.

Using the formulas in your guide:

400m: 53

800m: 53+4 = 1.54

1500m: 53+8 = 3.49

Yeah, but that charts don't account for the fact you've got an athlete who if he ran in a straight line could probably go sub 50 for the 400. Plus he's never really placed much importance on 400 times, so everytime he ran one he always had this excuse or that one for running 53-54 in a best effort 400. The reason he got into the mile in the first place was I watched him do strides and the guy has awesome turnover. Very, very good natural acceleration so even though his PR 400 is only 53, he is faster than that in real life.

Now the funky thing about the leg speed argument is this. We have another kid locally who has a faster PR on our standard 280m gradual hill than the 53 athlete in question. This 5k/10k kid also runs 25-26 seconds for 200 finishes at the end of his workouts, the same as the 53 athlete, yet he has a 1500 PR of 3:56, even with a 14:12 and 29:34 PR. Why's that? Cause, well I don't know why. I'm thinking I better get to work on that kid's 1500 time. No way he should be at 3:56 and the other guys at 3:40 given they have the same basic leg speed and similar 5k times.

I'm rambling, sorry. Really though, too much focus on leg speed seems to a double edged sword similar to mega weekly mileage. You get a relatively small increase in fitness for a big risk in injury, so we just don't focus too much on 400 speed around here is all. Please don't limit in your mind what an athlete can do based on that alone. This guy has the same basic leg speed as Harris cause I've seen them both workout, plus this kid has a faster 5k, he should be able to run a similar 1500 time as Jamey.

Joe

Mr. Rubio:

Out of curiosity, what do you consider to be "too much lege speed work" and "mega weekly mileage?"

Wello wrote:

why should a 1500m runner train at race-pace or quicker except when gettin ready for summer-track season?

There is no need to train the anaerobic system for longer than 4-8 weeks per year, aerobic training starts at 3k-pace, training above 100% Vo2max is pretty useless for conditioning.

That what you say i consider one more "american mistake", a myth or a wrong preconceived idea that you train missing a pace effort or a work in equivalent physiologic efforts and that "as a miracle" you use the "miraculous" taper and peak and your body are ready to shape in 6-8 weeks in hard efforts.

Historically that´s derived from Lydiard ideas and Lydiard periodisation, but that´s more a misunderstanding about Lydiard method.

Under that training philosophy i understand better now why most americans they claim that they are not satisfied with their performances or they don´t improve as expected.

Physiologists they say that more than 10 days missing or ignoring the use/exercise in a certain training zone level you start loosing something of your physical capacity or to recruit yours cells in the several human systems that work to perform a certain effort.

For example. It means that after 10 days ignoring the specificity of a pace - speed, anaerobic, race pace, lactate management or aerobic etc - the twitches / fibres cells that are needed to r recruit that “effort zone” (speed or race pace etc) - some of them starts to die after a 10 days period, and you loose some of that capacity. Physiologists they also estimate that a period 3 times longer that the period that you miss that effort are needed to build up the same earlier capacity, but sometimes longer and sometimes there´s no return. You miss that completely. That´s not new the stories about runners that did a sustain progress and train regularly in their careers and that after missing training for a long period during, ex: due to a serious injury - when they want to come back they are unable to come back to the same performance levels that they did before, despite they train hard and right for a long period looking for a come back in top-shape. So a few times the lack of a certain located effort training that miss takes the come back impossible because the lost by the unused that´s irreversible.

Here there are several problems, several obstacles to our target. That 10 days that´s not enough to exercise in and training efforts/levels that we might, and besides we need days to recover - another body need.

So, ther´s no change if not to select from what´s essential in each training period/phase, but trying to come close to specificity, or specific training soon as possible. That poses another problem is that apart to the "specifics of the specifics - read race pace and faster" we need pace supports in intense paces but slower than race pace - thus you are right that for a 1500 goal target 5000m pace that´s a pace support in earlier season, but you are wrong if you think that you get any benefits by missing specifics for too long.

Another obstacle that´s if you come out of a rest period, or an hard period, you can´t enter in the specifics without a intro period that you train the basics (pure aerobic)- thus easy runs and also the pace support (aerobic endurance) -thus intense threshold runs.

Of course that the workouts formats to stimulate a physiologic activity are so many. You can train anaerobics using workouts in an anaerobic pace/faster than race pace, or dong hills reps, or doing strides or doing weights !

And you can train your body and muscles in faster paces than race pace by doing short strides. But the “specific of the specifics” that are training in race pace (or close to the race pace) and faster than race pace really.

Now, in that scenario, how you pretend to loose a determined training effort for a long period (6 to 8 and half months) and recover quickly that quality or improve that your quality in 4-5 weeks. Only by miracle !

But more strange and curious to me. That are the same persons that advise that we may train 2 hour long runs EVERY WEEK for a 800m-1500m target goal - also during the taper period - or we will loose that aerobic power that are the same people that thinks we can miss 8 months of a so specific training as "anaerobic endurance and aerobic power" - faster than race pace.

Of course, in a training technique while building up an entire season we need to analyse how long it takes each phase, and what´s each pace need. That´s not the same to peak once a year or twice as Rui Silva does (indoor and outdoors) or 3-4 times a year round as "all terrain" runners they do - cross/track/road. But we can´t miss no one specific pace for too long - or we are loosing the efficiency to use our talent.

Besides, “faster than race pace” or race pace that doesn´t mean necessary very hard and delayed anaerobic efforts, those that Lydiard says that german physiologists said you can improve more than 6 weeks. That anaerobic pace are max.pace for a set distance, really anaerobic/lactic pace. The pace considered faster than race pace i´m talking about – that´s 100% to 105-107 % race pace, that you may train not necessary for longer total mileage workouts, but by the way for 1 to 2 miles in sets with complete recover.

may be you missunderstand me, I'm not talking about "no training above the treshold", I'm talking about "no lactate tolerance training".When you train at 3k-5k-10k pace you also train lactate management a bit but the main stimulus is aerobic.

So when you say Rui Silva trains in early season with doing 15x400m or 6x1000m its anaerobic intensity but from what you wrote he is not doing 10x400m in like 58-57-56-55 sec, right?The same when you look at El-Guerroujs training or Seb Coes Training or even when you look at the Diaries of Tim Hutchings who is the reference in most Horwill articles:no lactate management in the winter maybe with the exception when World-Indoor Championchips or whatever is on shedule.Tim Hutchings once said something like he would be dead if he had followed Horwills guidelines so nough said about Horwills 5-pace system.Hutchings did in the winter like 400s in 61-62 or 1000s in low 2:30s thats 3k pace or even a bit quicker considering but thats still a mainly aerobic training considering aerobic/anaerobic ratio.

I agree you cant hide from intensity in the winter/spring but the training technique of most athletes if its Gebre or El-G or Mottram or whoever is to start a moderate pace like 3k-5k-10k pace and then work down as the track season is knocking on the door.

That´s not easy for me to use your terminology as it would be hard for you to use mine.

In the base of the portuguese 1-2-3- pace theory ther are 3 weel defined training zones that one of race pace (race pace according the target goal distance event, not like you use individual 3kilo pace.

I agree with you that in your exampoles most of the stimulus that´s aerobic, but they are also FASTER than RACE PACE, wich for me that relevant and the pace measure as to say. If Rui do in winter season ex:400´s for 57s-60s and if he goes to participate in portuguese cross runs short version that he use to peack for that competition, or if he goes to run 3000m indoor world champs what he did last winter seasons that 57-60s 61s that´s FASTER THAN RACE PACE FOR THE TARGET EVENT - 3000m in 60 that´s 7:30 and RUi did also 7:36 PB.

The same with Tim Hutchings - i know that he didn´´t personified the Horwill model ! - if he gonna compete in World cross champs or in 3000m indoors - that once he did a second place behind Carlos Lopes - 400m in 62 sec or 1000m in 2:32 THAT´s also FASTER THAN PACE RACE IN THE EVENT DISTANCE - our original pace concept (mine and Joe).

Only when they considers that they will be running 1500m then you can say that a your 10kilo-5kilo-3kilo pace workouts they are slower than race pace (in that case race pace that´s considered 1500m perfromance.

But you are right. Rui, even when he is prepare indoor or outdoor 1500m he does´t start the season with workouts too much faster than 1500m race pace, but he passes to that faster paces soon as possible - erlier than 4-6--8weeks that you did suggest. Soon as possible. Now call that lactate tolerance, max.VO2, enaerobic training whatever. That are really "faster than race pace" for the estimate performance that he elects as the season target goal distance. faster than his 3000m/5000m PBs even pace.

Did i more clear now?

Thanks guys keep this up. I always copy the good stuff from the boards. Antonio I have 21 pages so far of your stuff on a separate file and another file from Renato. (Joe you sent me your word file by email some time ago thanks)

The thinks I am learning from you guys are helping my girls a lot. We are seeing great improvements. I have found that Renatos 50-60m hill sprints all out with 3 mins rest work wonders. The girls hate it because it takes forever but it realy is benificial. I had a girl run the 1/2 marathon in 1:17 (not all out) just for money (I know thats stupid but its done) without doing any long tempo stuff. Just solid general training with short hill sprints, 100m strides, solid effort runs (6:45 - 7:10 pace normaly) and 75 miles per week. Long runs are about 1:40 max. The only real workout was 8 x 1000 (3:45 odds, 3:35 evens) so thats just over and just under race pace of 3:40 for a 1:17.

Racer1 wrote:

Mr. Rubio:

Out of curiosity, what do you consider to be "too much lege speed work" and "mega weekly mileage?"

It depends on the individual. In my mind an overemphasis on any singular area of fitness such as all out leg speed or high volumes of weekly mileage is what I was alluding to. So someone who obsesses about their weekly mileage whatever that may be, whether it's 100 MPW, 130, 150, 40 and worries comparatively little about or worse yet, not at all about the other areas of fitness such as anaerobic conditioning, aerobic capacity or anaerobic capacity is what I see as a negative and an area to address with many athletes and coaches. Too much one sidedness is not a good thing in my mind, so an athlete who is always concerned about their leg speed and works in excess to try and improve it tends to run a higher risk of injury than does an athlete who addresses the weakness consistently, but does so within a program that allows adaptation to occur. What this is depends on the individual. A guy like me who has been out of the loop doing 4 x all out 80's is overdoing it, but for a 22 year old 800 runner is way undertraining. Again, each case is different so can't quanitify it neatly in the context of this message.

I have made the same mistake in the past with more than one athlete. Sometimes it's a focus on too much mileage, sometimes it's aerobic capacity, other times it anaerobic capacity, sometimes it's more than one area at the same time. Whatever it is, it always results the same way, worse results for that kid.

Not sure if I'm making sense here. Basically, following a well rounded program with the goal to be essentially a concurrent development of fitness in all areas in volumes that are tolerated safely by the individual versus a one sided program with an emphasis to the point of extreme is the point I was trying to get across.

Joe

Very intersting Joe.

let me allow to include one world among all that you did: RECOVER !

Apart of your deep sincerity, but "errere humanun est" (mistakes that are human), and only those who don´t try don´t make mistakes, but also those who try they learn from the experience, and let me say that we learn from the failures more than from the sucess.

That you last post brings us for a intrigue question: May we train "à-la-carte" or "à-la-table d´hote" ? That means "à-la-carte" that you have a menu that you can choose: win, or water or beer, or sugar drinks, or bread or soup, or meat or fish, or salade or vegetables or desert or fruit, and "à-la-table d´hote" that the restaurant have a mix menu elaborate by them and that you just can accept or refuse. Why i say so ?

May we train by choosing paces or physiologic "zones" with all power of decision, looking for each individual need or may we train because they say that exists a speed, a max.Vo2 zone, an anerobic thershold zone an aerobic and an anaerobic effect ?

All of you, what do you think?

i understand, Rui is doing 2-cycles also peaking for indoor season so he starts very early doing the hard stuff as there is not so much time to build-up in a 2-cycle program.

However we have to definitate what Race Pace means, for a 5k runner Race Pace training has other effects than for a 1500m runner or a 100k runner but even when having a different major event a runner has to think for what the workout is preparing him,what he is trying to achieve.

A 1500m runner aim has to be to improve endurance as it is the aim of a 10k runnner.

So lets say a 1500m has his major races in may-june-july-august, what sense does it make to work at 800-1500m pace in January?He would just damage his endurance system, Trackhead agrees that it shouldnt be too taxing says a runner needs to stay in touch with the intensity so he should do easy 800m-1500m workouts.

So lets say doing 8x200m at 1500m pace with long recovery for example, does it prepare you for anything?

Its neither stimulating the aerobic or the anaerobic or the muscular system.You want to stay in solid anaerobic shape?

Why not doing a 5k-pace workout?

Lactate will go 6-8-10mmol AND you'll have a good aerobic effect too, will train the heart and the lactate treshold.

Someone posted training of Mamede doing his short reps in the winter at 62-64-66 sec per 400m and then going down to 58-56 in the summer, the same with Roger 25mpw Bannister for example.

this is not science despite i mention terms as aerobic and anaerobic, its a training technique that world-class runners from 1500m to the Marathon use for conditioning.

Antonio -

When yo get a chance, could you please explain to us the reasons behind doing Short Reps ie.{12X200 /15X300 / 15X400}

I would say that 8 x 200 would give let your body always stay in touch with 1500m speed. Thus it will not ever be a shock to the system. The hard VO2 stuff is more likely to damage your aerobic system if you do too much of it. But a workout of 5 x 600 around 3 - 5K pace would not be too stressful but still stress that system. I think a problem I have is I used to think all workouts had to be killer efforts. But it seems these shorter workouts allow the athletes to keep training at a higher level every day. Even if that day is just a solid 10mile run. Consistancy and touching all efforts seems very important. I think Seb Coe got to the point where what seem like killer workouts to us were just run of the mill to him. That is why not many people can fallow his stuff.

Well done Purdue Grad. JK, Renato, Tinman, Joe (excuse me not to mention all). But i don´t collect my own ! A few times people comes to me saying that i said that and that i said that and i don´t remember no more. They got me

I also collect all that stuff, the good and the not so good one. I learn as well from what i consider "not so good" because chalenges me to think how shall be.

I think that you are in tne right direction. What you think that in a 2 to 3 pace combination - if we need to eliminate one, or that exists a lick of one of them what you would do?

1+2 (faster than pace race, including your hills and strides in that category)+ race pace ?

1+3 faster than race pace + intenser but slower tha race pace (lacatate management)?

2+3 race pace + intenser but slower tha race pace (lacatate management)?

In the case that you are a beginner as in the case that you do compete regularly i will choose the 1+3 combination, that despite that i think that race pace (close) that´s a training priority, the runs/competitions will provide the lack that race pace - runs are real pace race under that distance.

If you collect my posts and if eventually you wnat to know how i look like, send me an e-mail and i will send a few recent pics from me, and you will know how i lok like in my 50 years old.

first, why is 800/1500 pace work AUTOMATICALLY going to destroy your endurance? It all depends on how you structure it. It's quite different if you're doing 20x200m @ 30s with a 90s jog than 8x400m at 60s with a 75s rest.

With ample rest, 20x200m becomes a threshold workout, with touches of 1500m energy systems -- just to get the ball rolling. It is not going to affect the runner negatively. It's essentially another threshold workout.

Who's going to be more prepared to race in June: the runner who has been doing something 1500m specific for 40 weeks or the runner who has been doing it for 8? And this is isn't a case where it's going to be detrimental. 30s hard, 90s jog -- that's 8min mile pace when you avg. it out. That's fine. Spend the year working from 90s rest, ultimately to 60 and 45s rest and you've got a beast. It takes a lot of times of doing a workout before you're actually getting everything out of it. Who's the stronger runner: one who did a 50min 10miler once and said okay I'm done, or the one who did it once a week for 45 weeks?

Purdue Grad, I have come to the same conclusion myself. It's difficult to convince people though, people tend to judge a workout by how much it hurts. The saying "no pain no gain" is completely untrue, but most people believe it.