He wouldn't need to be AS GOOD in the 400 as he is in the 800 to double on a 4x400. He is World Champ level in the 800. Our 4x400 guys are not all World Champ level in the 400. They are very good, but they are often 44 mid guys. Cooper would only need to run 1.8 seconds faster than he did as a high school sophomore, off a double, before his 1:42 breakthrough, to get to that level. It's not at all unrealistic to think he can achieve that.
I'll suggest why it is unrealistic. Firstly, 45.3 in a relay is still over 46 from blocks. That would put him in the company of Tom Courtney, George Kerr and Bill Crothers, who all ran 46 flat - but in pre modern shoes and on dirt. They were also 21-flat runners over 200. We have yet to see anything like that from Lutkenhaus, who has yet to run below 22 secs.
But the more significant comparison is with another age prodigy, Quincy Wilson. Wilson has improved one tenth of a second over the 400 since he was 16. He then ran 44.2 and his best is now 44.1. So ONE TENTH. He will be doing well to go below 44. There is no likelihood that he will achieve a second faster let alone 1.5-2secs. Lutkenhaus will likely be able to run sub-46 but sub-45 or better is a real stretch. The price of maturing young is that improvements become harder to come by. Amos never ran the 800 faster than he did in 2012 and Ryun never ran faster than he did at 19. I similarly expect the gains for Lutkenhaus to be marginal as he gets older.
If we are going to use Quincy as a comp, let’s also use Quincy’s relay-to-open delta. Quincy’s best relay carry is 43.9r and his best open is 44.1.
So it’s not necessarily true that 45.3r puts him over 46.
So Coop could’ve been at 45.5 last year using your comp set.
So it's "out" by how many hundreths of a second? It makes what difference? He is nowhere near the runner over 400 as he is over 800.
The time was wrong - as most times you give.
1:42.27 is better than 46.3? Great to have posters with such insight.
You said he will never be the fastest over 200m or 400m in an 800m championship final.
You were wrong - as almost always.
At the last Olympics and outdoor wc 800 finals there would have been competitors faster than 46.3 over the 400. There were 800 runners in the '50s and '60s who could run 46. It isn't exceptional any more. Some would also probably be close to 21-flat over the 400 (like Courtney, Kerr and Crothers were). Lutkenhaus isn't.
But my main point is that Lutkenhaus is unlikely to be world-class over the 400 as he is over the 800. That's what "doubling" means for an athlete of his level. He is likely to remain an exceptional 800 specialist, as most over the event are. And as those in the 400 are.
This post was edited 26 seconds after it was posted.
Because they’re different athletes entirely? Wilson’s set his 400m PB in pro races fresh. Lutkenhaus a HS race on a double, and hasn’t raced the distance again yet. He’s also shown a lot more progress since May 2025 than Wilson.
Of course they are different athletes but they are both age prodigies who have matured early; that is the point of the comparison.
Lutkenhaus has stayed at much the same level in the 400 in the last year, which is just over 46 secs (converting his 45.3 relay leg).
As I have said, I expect the improvements for both Wilson and Lutkenhaus to be incremental now. For Wilson it will mean can he run sub-44 and beat the best in that event and for Lutkenhaus it will be whether he can run 1:41-low to beat the best in the 800. Neither is a foregone conclusion. The 400 will not be where Lutkenhaus makes his mark. He will be doing well to run sub-46 - which is good enough for a top 800 runner.
Re-setting the goalposts again. The discussion is about Cooper’s potential in the 400/800. What Mr. Ad Hominem himself, The King of OCD, Armstronglivs, continues to ignore that Cooper’s last 400m was in May of last year as part of a double. That’s significant, which is why you ignore it.
Btw - Korir’s PB in the 400 was run at Nairobi, which means it’s more like 45.1 - 45.3 at sea level, if you want to quibble. No one compares other 800m runners to Juantorena in the 400 because that guy was admittedly quite the freak of nature when it came to 400 speed and his strength over two laps. But he was eclipsed over two laps by Coe after just a short time at the top, and Coe barely cracked 47 as an adult (46.87), running fresh, unlike a 16 year old running his second race of the meet (and third race in 24 hours).
I'll suggest why it is unrealistic. Firstly, 45.3 in a relay is still over 46 from blocks. That would put him in the company of Tom Courtney, George Kerr and Bill Crothers, who all ran 46 flat - but in pre modern shoes and on dirt. They were also 21-flat runners over 200. We have yet to see anything like that from Lutkenhaus, who has yet to run below 22 secs.
But the more significant comparison is with another age prodigy, Quincy Wilson. Wilson has improved one tenth of a second over the 400 since he was 16. He then ran 44.2 and his best is now 44.1. So ONE TENTH. He will be doing well to go below 44. There is no likelihood that he will achieve a second faster let alone 1.5-2secs. Lutkenhaus will likely be able to run sub-46 but sub-45 or better is a real stretch. The price of maturing young is that improvements become harder to come by. Amos never ran the 800 faster than he did in 2012 and Ryun never ran faster than he did at 19. I similarly expect the gains for Lutkenhaus to be marginal as he gets older.
If we are going to use Quincy as a comp, let’s also use Quincy’s relay-to-open delta. Quincy’s best relay carry is 43.9r and his best open is 44.1.
So it’s not necessarily true that 45.3r puts him over 46.
So Coop could’ve been at 45.5 last year using your comp set.
No, he couldn't. Wilson's best relay time is still effectively 44.7. It isn't as good as his best time out of the blocks. He has that time on the books. Lutkenhaus's relay time equates to 46.1. He doesn't have a faster time out of the blocks so far than 46.3.
My comparison with Wilson is mainly to show that with age prodigies the improvements are often incremental after their breakthrough. It isn't to say their times will progress at exactly the same rate. The other point which stands out is that they are each specialists in different events. So far there is nothing that shows Lutkenhaus will be a sub-45 runner. He will be doing well to take tenths of a second now off his best times. Over a second improvement is shooting for the moon - for both athletes.
This post was edited 47 seconds after it was posted.
Of course they are different athletes but they are both age prodigies who have matured early; that is the point of the comparison.
Lutkenhaus has stayed at much the same level in the 400 in the last year, which is just over 46 secs (converting his 45.3 relay leg).
As I have said, I expect the improvements for both Wilson and Lutkenhaus to be incremental now. For Wilson it will mean can he run sub-44 and beat the best in that event and for Lutkenhaus it will be whether he can run 1:41-low to beat the best in the 800. Neither is a foregone conclusion. The 400 will not be where Lutkenhaus makes his mark. He will be doing well to run sub-46 - which is good enough for a top 800 runner.
Re-setting the goalposts again. The discussion is about Cooper’s potential in the 400/800. What Mr. Ad Hominem himself, The King of OCD, Armstronglivs, continues to ignore that Cooper’s last 400m was in May of last year as part of a double. That’s significant, which is why you ignore it.
Btw - Korir’s PB in the 400 was run at Nairobi, which means it’s more like 45.1 - 45.3 at sea level, if you want to quibble. No one compares other 800m runners to Juantorena in the 400 because that guy was admittedly quite the freak of nature when it came to 400 speed and his strength over two laps. But he was eclipsed over two laps by Coe after just a short time at the top, and Coe barely cracked 47 as an adult (46.87), running fresh, unlike a 16 year old running his second race of the meet (and third race in 24 hours).
I'm not resetting the goal posts. I am showing why I don't think Lutkenhaus will be a world class runner over the 400 as well as the 800, which is what "doubling" means in his case. If he was a 1:50 runner over 800, as Wilson is, no one here would know who he is, with a 400 pr over 2 secs slower than Quincy (and Quincy has only gained a tenth of a second since he was 16. Big gains aren't guaranteed).
Juantorena doubled at both - he was Olympic 400/800 champions. That his 800 world record was later eclipsed doesn't change that. Coe did not double at both events. His best was a 45-mid relay leg. He doubled at the 800/1500 - more common.
This post was edited 2 minutes after it was posted.
At the last Olympics and outdoor wc 800 finals there would have been competitors faster than 46.3 over the 400. There were 800 runners in the '50s and '60s who could run 46. It isn't exceptional any more. Some would also probably be close to 21-flat over the 400 (like Courtney, Kerr and Crothers were). Lutkenhaus isn't.
But my main point is that Lutkenhaus is unlikely to be world-class over the 400 as he is over the 800. That's what "doubling" means for an athlete of his level. He is likely to remain an exceptional 800 specialist, as most over the event are. And as those in the 400 are.
Name all the world class 800m runners currently active with 400m PBs faster than 46.30. I will wait.
Your point is to misconstrue doubling and his improvement. People are excited by his potential to run impressive times (sub-45) and pursue exciting side quests (make a 4x400 squad).
There is not an expectation/belief that he will be better at the 400 than 800 or will be pursuing doubles unless he has a bye into events.
Re-setting the goalposts again. The discussion is about Cooper’s potential in the 400/800. What Mr. Ad Hominem himself, The King of OCD, Armstronglivs, continues to ignore that Cooper’s last 400m was in May of last year as part of a double. That’s significant, which is why you ignore it.
Btw - Korir’s PB in the 400 was run at Nairobi, which means it’s more like 45.1 - 45.3 at sea level, if you want to quibble. No one compares other 800m runners to Juantorena in the 400 because that guy was admittedly quite the freak of nature when it came to 400 speed and his strength over two laps. But he was eclipsed over two laps by Coe after just a short time at the top, and Coe barely cracked 47 as an adult (46.87), running fresh, unlike a 16 year old running his second race of the meet (and third race in 24 hours).
I'm not resetting the goal posts. I am showing why I don't think Lutkenhaus will be a world class runner over the 400 as well as the 800, which is what "doubling" means in his case. If he was a 1:50 runner over 800, as Wilson is, no one here would know who he is, with a 400 pr over 2 secs slower than Quincy (and Quincy has only gained a tenth of a second since he was 16. Big gains aren't guaranteed).
Juantorena doubled at both - he was Olympic 400/800 champions. That his 800 world record was later eclipsed doesn't change that. Coe did not double at both events. His best was a 45-mid relay leg. He doubled at the 800/1500 - more common.
Notice the way he avoids the fella’s point about Juantorena, and Coe. The way he falls back on Coe’s relay leg at age 24, while avoiding all the other points noted including those by others in previous posts. Cooper’s youth bothers him. He needs help.
Let’s see how he mangles Thoughtsleader’s post/question.
1:42.27 is better than 46.3? Great to have posters with such insight.
You said he will never be the fastest over 200m or 400m in an 800m championship final.
You were wrong - as almost always.
At the last Olympics and outdoor wc 800 finals there would have been competitors faster than 46.3 over the 400. There were 800 runners in the '50s and '60s who could run 46. It isn't exceptional any more. Some would also probably be close to 21-flat over the 400 (like Courtney, Kerr and Crothers were). Lutkenhaus isn't.
But my main point is that Lutkenhaus is unlikely to be world-class over the 400 as he is over the 800. That's what "doubling" means for an athlete of his level. He is likely to remain an exceptional 800 specialist, as most over the event are. And as those in the 400 are.
You daid he will never be the fsstest over 400m in an international 800m final. You were wrong - as almost always.
From all the finalists in the global finals 2024 and 2025, Arop is the only one with a faster 400m PB then CL. Most don't have a 400m PB (they tend more to the 1500m).
It's safe to state you are wrong on also here.
How fast will CL run the 400? Most likely sub 46. Probably around 45.5 I would say.
I don't understand why it's so difficult for people to ignore Armstrong. He wants responses and downvotes. If we all took a vow to not engage in any manner with his replies, he would fck off in a matter of weeks. Stop taking the bait!
I don't understand why it's so difficult for people to ignore Armstrong. He wants responses and downvotes. If we all took a vow to not engage in any manner with his replies, he would fck off in a matter of weeks. Stop taking the bait!
Reminds me of the screwball in the Clevenger thread using 30 names to keep it afloat. Different tactic but some of the same intent. You’re right: Ignore them all!
I don't understand why it's so difficult for people to ignore Armstrong. He wants responses and downvotes. If we all took a vow to not engage in any manner with his replies, he would fck off in a matter of weeks. Stop taking the bait!
Reminds me of the screwball in the Clevenger thread using 30 names to keep it afloat. Different tactic but some of the same intent. You’re right: Ignore them all!
I wouldn’t be surprised if the multiple personality guy post bombong his own thread on Clevenger lands the site lands this site in a behind the lawsuit or what have you. Armstronglivs is merely trying to get as much attention as he can. It keeps him going.
Cooper will likely be capable of running mid 45 this year in the 400 if he races it at all, but 44.9 wouldn’t surprise me too much.
Reminds me of the screwball in the Clevenger thread using 30 names to keep it afloat. Different tactic but some of the same intent. You’re right: Ignore them all!
I wouldn’t be surprised if the multiple personality guy post bombong his own thread on Clevenger lands the site lands this site in a behind the lawsuit or what have you. Armstronglivs is merely trying to get as much attention as he can. It keeps him going.
Cooper will likely be capable of running mid 45 this year in the 400 if he races it at all, but 44.9 wouldn’t surprise me too much.
I think I get your post. You should proofread. Yeah, no April Fools joke, the Clevenger guy with two dozen monikers seems determined to get someone sued. I don’t think Army has anything like that in mind at all. He just likes to argue and irritate.
Lutkenhaus is a beast. He was almoat three seconds faster indoors this year. 1:41 low outdoors this year would not surprise me at all. He could possibly level off for a bit then make another solid jump the next couple of years. Tha’s how it goes for a lot of super talented runners.
Lutkenahaus will be an 800/1500m runner, as opposed to an 800/400m runner.
More like Coe than like Juantorena.
(This assumes the training is geared in the correct way)
Lutkenhaus gives the impression he only cares about the 800. He may never run the 1500 much if at all if he ends up enjoying continued great success over two laps.
Lutkenahaus will be an 800/1500m runner, as opposed to an 800/400m runner.
More like Coe than like Juantorena.
(This assumes the training is geared in the correct way)
Lutkenhaus gives the impression he only cares about the 800. He may never run the 1500 much if at all if he ends up enjoying continued great success over two laps.
I agree with this. He's an 800 guy, for sure.
Some here will be surprised by what he can do at 1500m.
Reminds me of the screwball in the Clevenger thread using 30 names to keep it afloat. Different tactic but some of the same intent. You’re right: Ignore them all!
I wouldn’t be surprised if the multiple personality guy post bombong his own thread on Clevenger lands the site lands this site in a behind the lawsuit or what have you. Armstronglivs is merely trying to get as much attention as he can. It keeps him going.
Cooper will likely be capable of running mid 45 this year in the 400 if he races it at all, but 44.9 wouldn’t surprise me too much.
In my opinion, he's more likely to end up in 44.5 shape than 45.5 shape once he's peaked.
I wouldn’t be surprised if the multiple personality guy post bombong his own thread on Clevenger lands the site lands this site in a behind the lawsuit or what have you. Armstronglivs is merely trying to get as much attention as he can. It keeps him going.
Cooper will likely be capable of running mid 45 this year in the 400 if he races it at all, but 44.9 wouldn’t surprise me too much.
In my opinion, he's more likely to end up in 44.5 shape than 45.5 shape once he's peaked.
That being said if he joins a early to mid season race I'd predict 45.2
I wouldn’t be surprised if the multiple personality guy post bombong his own thread on Clevenger lands the site lands this site in a behind the lawsuit or what have you. Armstronglivs is merely trying to get as much attention as he can. It keeps him going.
Cooper will likely be capable of running mid 45 this year in the 400 if he races it at all, but 44.9 wouldn’t surprise me too much.
In my opinion, he's more likely to end up in 44.5 shape than 45.5 shape once he's peaked.
Peaked for the season or for his career? I think that poster meant this season.
At the last Olympics and outdoor wc 800 finals there would have been competitors faster than 46.3 over the 400. There were 800 runners in the '50s and '60s who could run 46. It isn't exceptional any more. Some would also probably be close to 21-flat over the 400 (like Courtney, Kerr and Crothers were). Lutkenhaus isn't.
But my main point is that Lutkenhaus is unlikely to be world-class over the 400 as he is over the 800. That's what "doubling" means for an athlete of his level. He is likely to remain an exceptional 800 specialist, as most over the event are. And as those in the 400 are.
Name all the world class 800m runners currently active with 400m PBs faster than 46.30. I will wait.
Your point is to misconstrue doubling and his improvement. People are excited by his potential to run impressive times (sub-45) and pursue exciting side quests (make a 4x400 squad).
There is not an expectation/belief that he will be better at the 400 than 800 or will be pursuing doubles unless he has a bye into events.
Further more, at Cooper’s age, he’s faster at 200m/400pretty than public much every 800m-focused runner ever. He’s probably than Juantrorena at 16 too.
So it’s highly likely he could be the fastest in every final he’s in.