bump
bump
Tinmam,
Thanks for breaking down the subject. I think I can fairly say that you have put me in the game as far as teh subject is concerned. Perhaps you should be a teacher after all.
SonNative:
Thank you for your kind comments! I do enjoy teaching very much. It seems quite natural. There is a feeling of reciprocal benefit as students and teachers interact. Everybody contributes and everybody is worthy. An aside, I am even awed by children who teach lessons about life, and so it goes that one can grow as one seeks to know. Curiosity may kill the cat, the old expression goes, but for humans it keeps them alive. Take care, Tinman
Lance-a-lot
Yes, Armstrong . The fifth ” Tour de France” 2005 edition win but with the help of another portuguese knight - Jose Azevedo, from US Postal.
About your questions, you are correct mainly. But as I see that you study the Rui Silva lesson very deep, you deserve to clean all your doubts.
But pay attention. Don´t misunderstand Rui training plan. Main training focus that´s aerobics and that needs extensive training, that needs volume, that needs cardio-vascular training, that needs enzymatic efforts, to delay efforts. What I want to say is that in the particular case of Rui Silva he is just a 1500m specialist, and it seems that he gets a adequate balance in between intensity (workouts) and volume (easy aerobic runs). We are not apologists of “minimalist” milers, the direction for the 1500m SPECIFICS are EXTENSIVITY (this means more miles/distance closer to Race Pace intensities) and INTENSITY (means more speed pace faster than event pace) but also in ALL cases BASIC WORK and VOLUME MILES (this means aerobic steady state paces, recover, regenerative runs) . That means that according the seasons and periods the training needs to run in MILEAGE direction as well as in INTENSITY DIRECTION. But Rui don´t need to train too much or nothing in STRENGHT direction. That´s not strength or plyos that will made him a winner a champion.
Look, if I take Paul Tergat to coach him, or Gebremariam, or eventually Lagat or El Guerrouj, I will analyse the need for weight – so thin they are – no muscular forms. But if I take Baldini or Rui, or Webb or American Meb I think that they are distance runners but they are thin, but you see their muscles design in their bodys. Eventaully they don´t need too much weights, or no weights at all.
“,,, Rui runs 40 minutes at approximately 4:00 per kilo pace (about 6:25 per mile.....WOW, quite easy and relaxed for such a fast runner!) in both the AM and PM. That would be about 10k(or 6.2 miles) of running each session, or 12.5 for the day…”
Someone who said “36min or 42min that´s wrong”. That´s just a curiosity with no really implication at all but that´s PRECISELY 40min. – no more no less ! That´s a daily routine !
I don´t think that 6:25 by mile that´s so slow as you say. I also said 3:40/kilo – that´s 5:53 by mile. You may think that he start in 4:20/kilo (6:58/mile) and that he do a negative split aerobic session to 6:25 and ending in 5:50/5:53. As I say that he is alwys concern to do 40min, I also say that he isn´t too much concern to follow a accurate pace. Eventually he goes faster or slowly than what I say – what I want to explain to you is that he goes steady, by time duration, not by mileage covered or pace intensity.
Besides you may think that´s not so easy like that if you think that eventually in that morning he did a hard specific workout session like 4X1500m in 3:45-3:48.
”…So......if we do what you said and "...the end of the that week we sum the miles and we see the weekly total volume".....we get what on the average for Rui for build-up period? 6 days x12.5 miles + 1 day(Sun) of 7.75 = 82.75 (or approx 80-85) per week. Would that be accurate?...”
Yes. And the same scheme during the later periods - ALL periods at all - he also keeps on going with 40min (AM)+40min (PM) or specific workout (AM)+40min (PM). Don´t think that routine changes. Never changes, ther´s no ups and downs in peak pr taper volume, no concern about reducing the mileage. So you ask? So, why you say that Rui do less miles in competitive periods? And I would ask: mainly because specific workouts are more intense and consequently less extensive, so less mileage close to competitions, but that don´t change dramatically. Also more competitions. Eventually a few days before a competition I do a rest day or just 30min runs once a day. So that´s clear why mileage that´s reduced close to competitive period. That´s not a strategic decision to put mileage down – that´s a consequence of Rui´s weekly schedule.
“…Usually Rui takes no days off?...”
Yes. From times to times but not previous planned.
“…Does he have periods like that where he does no "workouts" but just runs the 40 min runs at around 4:00 per kilo twice each day (pure aerobic phase)? Please let me know if I understand correctly….”
No. Since from the season start or each complete cycle (one for the indoors the second one for outdoors) he start with some specifics in the first week. Not very intense, but he do no time to waist in what´s specifics concern. We Portuguese we don´t believe in that old Lydiard conception that´s to stay a long period without hard efforts and then in later 1-2 months to train anaerobically. We consider that dramatic taper a “miracle” or a “fantasy”, since we don´t know how the shape condition can improve with a long period with pure aerobic efforts. We say “If you want to run fast you need to train hard”. Ok, earlier phases you start not too much intense, and later before the race you can easy down the process, but mainly you need to train hard with regenerative runs. After 10 days without exercising your body and muscles in a certain training zone level (speed, specific speed endurance, Race Pace, lactate management and so) you are loosing something…a few of your twitches/fibers that rules that pace that are dying.
Also remember. The faster you train – the more you need recover/regenerative runs.
That´s inadequate to the present reality and actual and modern competitive time tables to spend too much time or a long period training just pure aerobics. Just for beginners. Besides as far as I know Lydiard he did put their Kiwi runner´s to compete in road and cross runs during that build up period. The body that´s a marvellous but a strange machine. He learns slowly how to work intensively relate to that he forgets all he did learn very quickly.
”… how long does the above periods last for Rui ("pure aerobic no workouts phase" & "workouts added to aerobic mix" phase) as far as weeks per year?...”
I say above that in Rui Schedule that doesn´t exists – a pure aerobic phase with no workouts.
Finnaly one more idea. The Rui Silva training that´s a medium-long term programme. For several years and that start a few years ago. The basic idea is that Rui IN A LINE OF CONTINUITY will improve by adding something MORE to his training, season after season.
This means that that season that will start a few weeks on that Rui will do 45min/45min or 50min/50min every day.
I am still in St. Moritz for preparing the GP Final in Monaco, so I cannot read every day the posts on letsrun. Now I read the idea of Jzs, talking about Nicholas Kemboi in specific way. A part the stupidity of someone talking about situations that he doesn`t know, I want to explain that too many times you think that an athlete has not a private life and the problems of the most part of people. Nicholas, of sure, was not professional during the last season. He married in May, and spent all the winter in organising his future life, forgetting a good training. Probably, was also a little bit presumptuous, thinking possible for him to reach in short time a shape valid for being competitive in OG. At the beginning of June he started his training, after more than 8 months of jogging, not every day. He skipped all the basic period, going after two weeks in specific training soon, together the other athletes (John Korir, Moses Mosop and Charles Kamathi) that AK selected for Olympics. His first sompetition was Stockholm meeting, where he ran 13:19 with some difficulty, because not prepared in specific endurance. After 40 days was able running in Bruxelles 27:17, that can fully confirm his talent.
The reason because I don´t think that drug can help top athletes (on the contrary of Jzs thinks) is exactly this one : if an athlete is able, with 2 months of specific preparation for 10000m, to run 26:30, it means that this cannot be his limit. I am sure that, with a FULLY PROFESSIONAL APPROACH, Nicholas Kemboi can run very close 26:00, because his margin of improvement is yet very big. Of course,when he was able running 26:30, his potential time on 5000m could be about 12:50 (13:01 was almost one month before, at that time he could not run under 27:00). But forget your "ratio", because in any case athletes run 10000m few times in relation with the opportunities of 5000m. And, in any case, don´t try to justify bad performances with the drug of other runners. With your mentality, the main reason of a bad performance are yourself, that are very damageous for athletics.
So Renato, If you take a "father and son"-talk with Nicholas and get him motivated to work hard during the fall/winter a sub 26.00 could be possible next summer? Is that correct regarding his talent? I read in Peter Coe's book "Winning Running" about athletes who got the talent but are too lazy to do the job, a coach worst nightmare, is it a nightmare to you seeing him wasting his talent away?
Hi Renato
I wonder how Shaeen are training during the winter?
I`ve seen his traning from april may, an d so on, how about his traning in nov, des, january? If you could tell us all a bit we would be happy:)
Thanks:)
I have no time, at the moment, to answer to your quote, because we are trying to attack the WR of steeple again in Monaco next Sunday, and after I have to finish the training of Ahmed Hassan Abdullah, Paul Kosgei and John Korir for WHM in New Dehli. But, after 5th of October, I am again in Italy for one month (may be that I go to Kenya and Ethiopia one week, but in any case not after 16th), and I can e-mail to people interested the full season of Shaheen and someother athlete.
About Nicholas, I think that he is able to understand the big mistake that he made this year. I don´t want to speak about 26:00, because may be not possible, or in any case connected with too many favorable situations. But I can suppose that, with a good training, he can be competitive with Bekele, running under the current WR. Beleive me, I had many talents in many years, but never I had one athlete able to improve so quickly like Nicholas. In my group, the two EXTRA-TALENTED are Shaheen and Nicholas, the other are very strong athletes (may be that someone can also beat a World Record in the future), but not so naturally talented.
Renato Canova wrote:
I´m again in St.Moritz, reading Letsrun from the internet of Hotel Laudinella. I apologyze if sometime I am not to much precise, but I write at 2 by night, without reading again what I wrote. I went to read again what I wrote, and I found my mistake : I wrote faster, when I had to write slower. For example, in the case of Gebre (12:39),the time per km is 2:32 (15.2 every 100m), and 98% is 15.5 per 100m (2:35 per km is 7:45 for 3 km).
But you must not think of the type of workout (that is clearly over the Threshold, and can reach 11 - 13 mmol for a top runner well trained), but of the EFFECT of this training. The question was : what type of training do you use for improving AnT ? The answer is : a lot of run that we can check between 95 and 105 % of the speed of the race.
I want to describe, for example, one type of training that Gianni Ghidini (the current coach of Bungei, Yiampoy and Kamal) and me use with these guys during the last period, having the goal to IMPROVE SPECIFIC ENDURANCE, developing intensity from the Threshold to Specific Endurance.
1) 6 x 600m (rec. 4 min) in 1:28 (60/28) 1:28 (60/28) 1:27 (60/27) 1:27 (60/27) 1:26 (60/26) 1:26 (60/26)
2) (about 10 days later) 5 x 600 (rec. 5 min) in 1:26 (60/26) 1:25 (59/26) 1:25 (59/26) 1:24 (59/25) 1:24 (59/25)
3) (about 10 days later) 4 x 600 (rec. 6 min) in 1:23 (57/26) 1:22 (57/25) 1:21 (57/24) 1:20 (56/24)
4) (about 10 days later, in the case of Bungei 8 days before Zurich) 3 x 600 (rec. 8 min) in 1:19.3 (54.2/25.1) 1:19.5 (54.6/24.9) 1:17.2 (53.0/24.2)
The next workout (before OG) will be 2 x 600 (rec. 10 min) in 1:16 (52/24).
This type of work starts about 2 months before the main event, having the goal of supporting AnT. After the first two sessions, when we test the speed at a level of lactate of 6 mmol, we can find an improvement of about 5-8 sec, per km. After the first two sessions, the focus of this training is the improvement of SPECIFIC ENDURANCE, joined with the capacity of increasing speed in the final of the race. The 5th workout is very specific,lactate reaches a level of 16-18 mmol, but in any case is an evolution of the first workout.
The normal use of groups of short distances increasing the speed every test, is a good way for increasing the AnT in aspecialist of 800 or 1500m. For example, 4 groups of 3 x 300m in 42/40/38 with 2 min recovery (and 5 min between the sets), or 4 groups of 3 x 600min 1:33/1:30/1:27 rec. 2 min and 5min, for specialists of 800 and 1500/3000m respectively, are workouts very good for increasing the AnT.
But what is important to remember, is that every distance needs a specific Aerobic Support, that is not the real AnT. For example, in the case of 3000 SC/5000, we can create a MAX LASS (Maximum Lactate Steady State) of 6/8 min at a level of 11-13 mmol of lactate, and the AnT that we need is the speed at a level of 8 mmol about. So, don`t pay attention at the CONVENTIONAL THRESHOLD of 4 mmol,because is something for physiologists, but really in many case doesn´t mean anything.
I try to write the level of lactate that you must use like AEROBIC SUPPORT for the specific workouts in different events :
800m 8-12 mmol
1500m 7-10
5000m 6-8
10000m 5-7
HM 4-5
Mar 4
Thanks Renato, this makes a lot of sense. For each event there is a different Anaerobic threshold.
Antonio,
Once again, thanks so much for your time in answering the questions I asked you. (And yes, good point about the "portuguese knight - Jose Azevedo" helping our Sir Lance win another tour).
You have eliminated 99% of my uncertainties with your last post, but of course ( :-) ) I need my final 1% of questions clarified IF possible (thanks for your patience!)
I see better what you mean about the volume of Rui's training. While total miles are not an obsession, the volume that Rui runs is QUITE ample (and I am glad I asked questions so I do understand better now). When one first sees "40 minutes twice as day, no more no less", one does think: wow, that's not a lot of running for a world class runner. BUT.....as my math showed (my math based on your information), Rui is ALMOST ALWAYS (except during competitive cycle) running 80+ miles a week. In fact (and I will get to this point in a moment), it seems to me that he is running (IF one counts all warm-up and warm-down miles) in excess of NINETY miles a week most weeks. Yes, of course you are correct that this clearly is NOT a minimalist approach. Because by regularly getting in those two 40 minute runs (even on a day when a "quality workout" is run....and the 2nd 40 minute run is part of that workout session: broken into 10 min warm-up and 30 min cool down) nearly EVERY day....the volume is ALWAYS there. Very simple, and very beautiful.
2nd Point/question about the mileage/volume. You wrote that I was correct in my calculation of: " ' we sum the miles and we see the weekly total volume'.....we get what on the average for Rui for build-up period? 6 days x12.5 miles + 1 day(Sun) of 7.75 = 82.75 (or approx 80-85) per week". BUT you also tell me that Rui never(rarely) runs weeks of only PURE aerobic runs, of ONLY two 40 min runs a day. That there is always SOME basic speed or "quality" work included in the week (even if not too fast, or not too much). AND.....you also said that when he runs a "quality/speed" workout, he includes 10 min warm-up and 30 min cool-down (at typical, avg 4:00 per kilo pace) as part of the session. And then also runs a 2nd 40 min aerobic session later that day. SO......does Rui usually (most of the year) run about 3 "quality workouts" a week? And does he usually average about 2-4 miles of quality/faster running during these sessions?? If so (and I feel confident in you saying "yes" at this point), then one could add 6-12 additional miles a week(of quality/faster running) to calculate Rui's typical weekly totals.
THUS......as I alluded to earlier, we get about 80-85 weekly miles from the two daily 40 minute runs (on workout days, one of the 40 min runs is broken into 10 min warm-up and 30 min cool-down) PLUS(+) 6-12 (typically) quality/speed miles (intervals, hills, etc) per week.
SO.....if one wants to be overly accurate (as I am doing..... :-) ), one should say: Rui's typical miles run per week(in the last few years, during non-competition cycles) are in the range of 86- 97 miles per week, depending on pace of aerobic runs ( which are run at a pace of between about 5:50-6:40 min per mile) and depending on # of workouts and # of quality/speed miles run per workout.
Is that final analysis of mine pretty close to the mark? If so, I think I understand the volume aspect (amount and structure) of Rui's training well now. And thanks to your previous posts and articles, I do believe I already understand the quality/speed aspect (the race paced longer intervals, the hills, and the "faster than race pace" stuff). Once more I must say: THANKS!
(and good luck to you and Rui).
Hi again Renato!
Thanks for taking time:) I`m of course interested, my e-mail is:
Good luck on attacking the WR again:)
greetings from 8.40 steepler
you guys really think that someone who stops serious training for 8 months while being only some secs away from the WR, is a drug cheat?
Someone who takes drugs must be obsessed with the sport and his own performances, someone who has some kind of complex he/she has to compensate.
The Salazar-mentality is the mentality of a drug cheat, doing everything possible to achieve something in the sport, is it running with oxygen tanks, taking aspirin, permanent overtraining or taking banned substances.
The guys who give up their life for a sport, these psychos are the people who get into the drugthing, not someone who marries and spends some months with his wife instead of getting the fastest 10k runner on this planet.
Seb Coe:"The sport is now well into its second decade of the full-time athlete. I have always been queasy about athletes doing nothing else than training - and between training worrying about the next session. It is a recipe for over-training, physical injury and mental staleness".
...and gettin on drugs
First you speak of 26 or under then you speak of not wanting to talk of it? Renato you speak out both sides of your mouth. Running under the WR for 10Km is different then talking about 25:59.99. When your boy runs 12:42 he will get close to KB's WR @10000 mt.
Renato we have seen many of your schedules for kenyans.Do you have any specific schedules for europeans or non-kenyan.It seems that with higher lactates they would need more intensity stimulus than a european.Can you comment on this and give any pratical knowledge.
bump
Tinman wrote:
SonNative:
Thank you for your kind comments! I do enjoy teaching very much. It seems quite natural. There is a feeling of reciprocal benefit as students and teachers interact. Everybody contributes and everybody is worthy. An aside, I am even awed by children who teach lessons about life, and so it goes that one can grow as one seeks to know. Curiosity may kill the cat, the old expression goes, but for humans it keeps them alive. Take care, Tinman
Thanks buddy, you are the finest!! God bless.
There was a thread that Canova wrote months ago about Aerobic threshold and Anaerobic threshold and although I read it halway before it disappeared, it was quite informative. Can anyone post it again please.
What else did Coe do when he was running at his best ?
From what I have read, my feeling is that he was a very professional and full time athlete travelling to Rome and the United States for all sorts of physiological tests with his father driving his car behind him on many training sessions to check his progress.
There is nothing wrong with that but in this quote, he seems to be knocking something that he himself was doing.
"The Salazar-mentality is the mentality of a drug cheat, doing everything possible to achieve something in the sport, is it running with oxygen tanks, taking aspirin"
One could also describe this as a professional mentality, as it is done in the case of Paula Radcliffe.