Is mileage overrated? Brandon Johnson ran 1:43 on 50-60 mpw, 1:46 on 80 to 90?

I was under the impression that you pretty much had to get the surgery for a torn labrum. What kind of strengthening and rehab did he have to do instead of the surgery?

You don't need much mileage for the 800 unless you want to set world records or win Olympic gold medals like Peter Snell, Jim Ryun and Steve Ovett. Some guys have the stones to train hard, some are lazy and shiftless.

The real question, rojo, is it better to be dope slapped three times or four times?

Didn't Ryun run 100 mile weeks in high school? And, according to Vent. he was capable of 1:39:** So maybe it all depends on the runner.

Lagat often doesn't even run that much, so obviously it can be way too much mileage for *some* 800m runners. We can all pull out from our arse some high mileage 800m runners (Peter Snell, 100mpw), but listen, the whole point of coaching is not to put runners through a cookie cutter training process of high mileage, lydiard, low mileage XFit or whatever. The purpose of the coach is to recognize strengths/weakness/failure-points in their athletes and tailor the program accordingly. Obviously 80-90 mpw was too much for Brandon, i say obvious because it's too much for many athletes, and BJ is speed dominant.

I understand that resources for high schools and some colleges are severely limited and it's often not possible for deeply individual training programs for each athlete, but Brandon Johnson is way beyond this level.

I'm a relatively 'higher mileage is better' person, but a 50% increase in mileage in one year is certainly going to cause a dip in performance. This doesn't say anything about optimal mileage, it just goes to show how 'elite' coaches can be morons.

Turkey Leg wrote:

, it just goes to show how 'elite' coaches can be morons.

Well, i wasn't going to say it so bluntly, but i agree with you. I would just add the word "some" in front of 'elite' coaches, but i'm sure you meant that.

Nothing moronic about doing that in an off year. It would be "moronic" to have an NCAA runner-up hurdler and 10.41 high schooler to run 50-60 miles a week but sometimes it pays off.

Gary Oldman wrote:

So you believe that everyone needs the highest mileage they can do and yet you don't have a clue how to implement that?

How the heck did Cornell ever buy your BS?

I've been trying to wait until the end of the year (when everyone I coahced has graduated) to write up a Q&A about my time at Cornell but may not hold off to deal with jerks like yourself. I am VERY proud of what we (me and John Kellogg) accomplished there. We absolutely dominated in track and rewrote virtually every mid-d record that existed at the school. Being a long distance guy myself, I know some people on this very board were surprised that during my first 5 years or so nearly all of my stars were mid-d guys - Bruce Hyde, Jimmy Wyner, etc.

Here are the top 10 guys all time at 800 indoors. I coached all of them (one or two of them set their marks after I left):

We once broke the Ivy League record in the DMR with our B team. By B team I mean without our anchor.

In terms of building mileage, going from 50 to 60 to 80 to 90 in a year (increase of 50% ) is likely too much.

Increasing mileage gradually over a number of years was something I very much focused on. Most people who were running 30-40 in HS could handle a few 50 mile weeks but everyone is different. Some kids can go way up, others can't handle any increases.

The fact that I quickly figured out what was wrong shows I did know what I was talking about. Don't put a square peg into a round whole. WHen I was in college, I heard so many coaches say, "This is what my all-AMerican did."

My reply would be, "I'm not your all-american." What works for some doesn't work for all.

That's because mid d guys can run well despite your best efforts. If you knew what you were doing everyone would run well.

rojo wrote:

Gary Oldman wrote:

So you believe that everyone needs the highest mileage they can do and yet you don't have a clue how to implement that?

How the heck did Cornell ever buy your BS?

I am VERY proud of what we (me and John Kellogg)

We once broke the Ivy League record in the DMR with our B team. By B team I mean without our anchor.

Don't put a square peg into a round whole.

.

Dang rojo, we (me and you're uther grammar teachers) is VERY proud of how gud yourself lerned you're lessuns. This is even despite usin are B teem. By B teem me mean only three of us for granulated frum kollege.

You never fail to keep us entertained. It is even better when you get all ballistic about it.

rojo wrote:

Gary Oldman wrote:

So you believe that everyone needs the highest mileage they can do and yet you don't have a clue how to implement that?

How the heck did Cornell ever buy your BS?

I am VERY proud of what we (me and John Kellogg)

We once broke the Ivy League record in the DMR with our B team. By B team I mean without our anchor.

Don't put a square peg into a round whole.

.

Dang rojo, we (me and you're uther grammer teechers) is VERY proud of how gud yourself lerned you're lessuns. This is even despite usin are B teem. By B teem me mean only three of us for granulated frum kollege. That there is the hole trooth.

You never fail to keep us entertained. It is even better when you get all ballistic about it.

Maybe—just maybe—training should depend on the individual, instead of the individual depending on the training. Different runners, different training...Peter Snell did 100 mpw but so what? Brandon Johnson shouldn't do Peter Snell's training, he should do Brandon Johnson's training.

Snell is an example of overkill. He won, but he didn't need to run so many miles to do so. Said himself it zapped his speed.

Hitmonlee wrote:

Snell is an example of overkill. He won, but he didn't need to run so many miles to do so. Said himself it zapped his speed.

I don't think you can call it overkill if he won twice. What is effective varies based on the individual, as many others in this thread have already pointed out. Not everyone is Rudisha (30-40 mpw).

Northern Star wrote:

Maybe—just maybe—training should depend on the individual, instead of the individual depending on the training. Different runners, different training...Peter Snell did 100 mpw but so what? Brandon Johnson shouldn't do Peter Snell's training, he should do Brandon Johnson's training.

+1. There are so many people who believe that the only way to success is the way they traveled. That's one reason that a successful runner often becomes a really bad coach. Runners who could learn from their mistakes become far better coaches than the ones who try to replicate their own success on other people.

rojo wrote:

We've got a pretty interesting interview with him up on the HP where he talks about how he was awful in 2014 as he couldn't handle a big increase in mileage:

http://www.letsrun.com/news/2015/01/brandon-johnson-discusses-injury-plagued-2014-new-coach-joaquim-cruz-goals-2015/

I have not checked out the interview yet, but I know of several athletes and a few I've coached who improved when their mileage was reduced. I have seen NCAA athletes who could barely match their H.S. school times because of too much mileage, albeit is some cases it was probably too much to soon. Sometimes the problem isn't too much mileage, by overall training volume. I use to discourage H.S. MD athletes from going to XC and LD oriented NCAA programs. I had a very good H.S. 400/800 athlete who was also a decent XC runner. He didn't start running until his junior year and perhaps only had a week or 2 over 40 mwp. I told his college coach that he needed to be brought along slowly and that he can't handle high mileage. His mileage was nearly doubled, in a matter of weeks; the good news is he was a scorer on an XC team that made the NCAA Champs, but that was the most accomplished for next 3 years. His senior year, a new coach took over who put him on a 5 day training week and he ended PRing almost every time he raced. Btw, I am not against high mileage, but it does not work for everyone.

Mentioning Snell's 100 miles a week is kind of apples to oranges though. That was just a peak, and with no interval workouts... his yearly average or weekly mileage while doing fast workouts would be much lower. He wasn't going to run a fast race after that 100 mile week, but he could peak and run very fast during the few weeks it counted. I think the guys trying to run fast for a whole 4 month season require a different approach.

TrackCoach wrote:

His senior year, a new coach took over who put him on a 5 day training week and he ended PRing almost every time he raced. Btw, I am not against high mileage, but it does not work for everyone.

Sounds to me like he benefitted from both the mileage and the long term taper, like Ritz in 2009. Base buildup can take years.

The 1:44.40 guy I coach (Alex Rowe) averages around 60-63km per week (28-30 miles) and that's counting warm ups, cool downs and strides...and running for the bus if he's late!

Longest run is 60min every Sunday and that drops to 40min during racing season.

We will work up to 80km in the lead up to 2016. You can run well off lower mileage...but it's not for everyone. You can look at the sub 1:50 thread for details on his training.

JR