RUPP - TRUE - MEAD - Enterened in Loaded Stockholm 5000! Let it roll!!

Area Man wrote:

...they're still running 5Ks just as fast as when Bekele ran, save for his one-off 12:37 effort...

Not true, the times have fallen well of what they were when Bekele (and perhaps EPO usage) was at his peak.

cnjlats wrote:

Area Man wrote:

...they're still running 5Ks just as fast as when Bekele ran, save for his one-off 12:37 effort...

Not true, the times have fallen well of what they were when Bekele (and perhaps EPO usage) was at his peak.

http://www.iaaf.org/records/toplists/middlelong/5000-metres/outdoor/men/senior

No they haven't, idiot, times have remained largely flat since the mid-90's, even despite there being fewer elite 5000's now.

Area Man wrote:

cnjlats wrote:

Not true, the times have fallen well of what they were when Bekele (and perhaps EPO usage) was at his peak.

http://www.iaaf.org/records/toplists/middlelong/5000-metres/outdoor/men/senior

No they haven't, idiot, times have remained largely flat since the mid-90's, even despite there being fewer elite 5000's now.

http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=t0g8i0&s=8#.U_Lu2vldXKg

We're you around to watch Tergat, geb, komen, bekele? Those guys blasted 5ks. Nowadays, not so much.

Trained thru wrote:

Area Man wrote:

No they haven't, idiot, times have remained largely flat since the mid-90's, even despite there being fewer elite 5000's now.

http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=t0g8i0&s=8#.U_Lu2vldXKg

We're you around to watch Tergat, geb, komen, bekele? Those guys blasted 5ks. Nowadays, not so much.

Yes I was and it's ridiculous how much people act "nostalgic" for those days as if guys were churning out sub 12:50s at every meet. The overall depth of times (i.e. top 10, 20, 30) is still the same as it always was, a couple outliers like Geb, DK, and Bekele only pop up once in a while and will probably pop up again in the future. Not sure why you mention Tergat as he was not that good at 5K.

Area Man wrote:It's not like Bekele was running 12:45s at will all those years.

But he did break 12:50 during his season peak for four or five consecutive years. I remember him running 12:48 at back-to-back meets once.

Area Man wrote:

Trained thru wrote:

We're you around to watch Tergat, geb, komen, bekele? Those guys blasted 5ks. Nowadays, not so much.

Yes I was and it's ridiculous how much people act "nostalgic" for those days as if guys were churning out sub 12:50s at every meet. The overall depth of times (i.e. top 10, 20, 30) is still the same as it always was, a couple outliers like Geb, DK, and Bekele only pop up once in a while and will probably pop up again in the future. Not sure why you mention Tergat as he was not that good at 5K.

For a guy that seems to spend a lot of time thinking about this, it is amazing how wrong you are.

There is a reason they call it the EPO era.

Area Man wrote:

We're you around to watch Tergat, geb, komen, bekele? Those guys blasted 5ks. Nowadays, not so much.

Yes I was and it's ridiculous how much people act "nostalgic" for those days as if guys were churning out sub 12:50s at every meet. The overall depth of times (i.e. top 10, 20, 30) is still the same as it always was, a couple outliers like Geb, DK, and Bekele only pop up once in a while and will probably pop up again in the future. Not sure why you mention Tergat as he was not that good at 5K.[/quote]

I remember these good old days as well. As I recal, Tergat was in some of the races that helped Komen and/ or Geb set WR's. His 5000 marks would still stand out today, despite being a more dominant XC and 10000m man:

Yearly best marks:

2000 12:55.18 Roma (Stadio Olimpico) 30 JUN

1999 12:55.37 Roma (Stadio Olimpico) 07 JUL

1998 12:58.74 Zürich 12 AUG

1997 12:49.87 Zürich 13 AUG

1996 12:54.72 Zürich 14 AUG

Back then a guy like Tergat could be way off the lead with these marks. He was getting crushed by Geb/Komen running 12:49 and 12:54. Geb beat Tergat by 8 seconds when Tergat ran 12:49. The depth of 12:50-13:00 guys may be good now, but we are not seeing near the depth of 12:37-12:49 guys are we?

All time best

Rank

Mark

Competitor

DOB

Nat

Pos

Venue

Date

1 12:37.35 Kenenisa Bekele 13 JUN 1982 ETH ETH 1 Hengelo 31 MAY 2004

2 12:39.36 Haile Gebrselassie 18 APR 1973 ETH ETH 1 Helsinki 13 JUN 1998

3 12:39.74 Daniel Komen 17 MAY 1976 KEN KEN 1 Bruxelles 22 AUG 1997

12:40.18 Kenenisa Bekele 13 JUN 1982 ETH ETH 1 Paris Saint-Denis 01 JUL 2005

12:41.86 Haile Gebrselassie 18 APR 1973 ETH ETH 1 Zürich 13 AUG 1997

12:44.39 Haile Gebrselassie 18 APR 1973 ETH ETH 1 Zürich 16 AUG 1995

12:44.90 Daniel Komen 17 MAY 1976 KEN KEN 2 Zürich 13 AUG 1997

12:45.09 Daniel Komen 17 MAY 1976 KEN KEN 1 Zürich 14 AUG 1996

4 12:46.53 Eliud Kipchoge 5 NOV 1984 KEN KEN 1 Roma (Stadio Olimpico) 02 JUL 2004

5 12:46.81 Dejen Gebremeskel 24 NOV 1989 ETH ETH 1 Paris Saint-Denis 06 JUL 2012

6 12:47.04 Sileshi Sihine 9 MAY 1983 ETH ETH 2 Roma (Stadio Olimpico) 02 JUL 2004

7 12:47.53 Hagos Gebrhiwet 11 MAY 1994 ETH ETH 2 Paris Saint-Denis 06 JUL 2012

12:48.09 Kenenisa Bekele 13 JUN 1982 ETH ETH 1 Bruxelles 25 AUG 2006

12:48.25 Kenenisa Bekele 13 JUN 1982 ETH ETH 1 Zürich 18 AUG 2006

8 12:48.64 Isiah Kiplangat Koech 19 DEC 1993 KEN KEN 3 Paris Saint-Denis 06 JUL 2012

9 12:48.66 Isaac Kiprono Songok 25 APR 1984 KEN KEN 2 Zürich 18 AUG 2006

10 12:48.77 Yenew Alamirew 27 MAY 1990 ETH ETH 4 Paris Saint-Denis 06 JUL 2012

11 12:48.81 Saif Saaeed Shaheen 15 OCT 1982 KEN KEN 1 Ostrava 12 JUN 2003

12:48.98 Daniel Komen 17 MAY 1976 KEN KEN 1 Roma (Stadio Olimpico) 05 JUN 1997

12 12:49.04 Thomas Pkemei Longosiwa 14 JAN 1982 KEN KEN 5 Paris Saint-Denis 06 JUL 2012

13 12:49.28 Brahim Lahlafi 15 APR 1968 MAR MAR 1 Bruxelles 25 AUG 2000

14 12:49.50 John Kipkoech 29 DEC 1991 KEN KEN 6 Paris Saint-Denis 06 JUL 2012

12:49.53 Kenenisa Bekele 13 JUN 1982 ETH ETH 1 Zaragoza 28 JUL 2007

12:49.64 Haile Gebrselassie 18 APR 1973 ETH ETH 1 Zürich 11 AUG 1999

15 12:49.71 Mohammed Mourhit 10 OCT 1970 BEL BEL 2 Bruxelles 25 AUG 2000

16 12:49.87 Paul Tergat 17 JUN 1969 KEN KEN 3 Zürich 13 AUG 1997

12:50.16 Sileshi Sihine 9 MAY 1983 ETH ETH 1 Bruxelles 14 SEP 2007

12:50.18 Kenenisa Bekele 13 JUN 1982 ETH ETH 1 Zürich 29 AUG 2008

12:50.22 Eliud Kipchoge 5 NOV 1984 KEN KEN 1 Bruxelles 26 AUG 2005

17 12:50.24 Hicham El Guerrouj 14 SEP 1974 MAR MAR 2 Ostrava 12 JUN 2003

18 12:50.25 Abderrahim Goumri 21 MAY 1976 MAR MAR 2 Bruxelles 26 AUG 2005

12:50.38 Eliud Kipchoge 5 NOV 1984 KEN KEN 2 Bruxelles 14 SEP 2007

19 12:50.55 Moses Ndiema Masai 1 JUN 1986 KEN KEN 1 Berlin 01 JUN 2008

20 12:50.72 Moses Ndiema Kipsiro 2 SEP 1986 UGA UGA 3 Bruxelles 14 SEP 2007

21 12:50.80 Salah Hissou 16 JAN 1972 MAR MAR 1 Roma (Stadio Olimpico) 05 JUN 1996

22 12:50.86 Ali Saïdi-Sief 15 MAR 1978 ALG ALG 1 Roma (Stadio Olimpico) 30 JUN 2000

23 12:51.00 Joseph Ebuya 20 JUN 1987 KEN KEN 4 Bruxelles 14 SEP 2007

After 2006, what do you have under 12:51.00? Paris 2012, that's it. A single race. Look back at the Zurich venue alone in 1995,1996,1997. Every year under

dkny64 wrote:

I presume Nike paid Sambu to rabbit the 10000m in Eugene. Why not do the same in this race with, say, Longosiwa? Pay him x thousand dollars [or euros or whatever] if he hits 4000m between 10:15 - 10:20. After that it's every man for himself.

I notice there is a guy with no 5000 mark, but a 3:33 best (3:38 this season) and 7:47 3000 mark.

I assume he is a rabbit, though I doubt for more than 2000K.

Perspectivation wrote:

dkny64 wrote:

I presume Nike paid Sambu to rabbit the 10000m in Eugene. Why not do the same in this race with, say, Longosiwa? Pay him x thousand dollars [or euros or whatever] if he hits 4000m between 10:15 - 10:20. After that it's every man for himself.

I notice there is a guy with no 5000 mark, but a 3:33 best (3:38 this season) and 7:47 3000 mark.

http://www.diamondleague.com/athletes/14472773.htm#5000mhttp://www.diamondleague-stockholm.com/en/Live-StartlistsResults/Overview/M-5000m/

I assume he is a rabbit, though I doubt for more than 2000K.

It's one thing to pay a small amount to a 2nd-tier guy and hope he does some decent pace making in the early stages of the race. It's another thing to recruit a quality guy like a Stephen Sambu to set a hard tempo for 80% of the race. Hey, maybe Sambu wasn't a paid rabbit in Eugene, maybe he just chose to front run, but I'm guessing he was in fact paid.

In a 5000m, the equivalent would be recruiting one of the world's better 5000m guys to drive the pace to 4000m. 10:24 is 13 flat pace, 10:16 is 12:50 pace so offer the guy, say, $10k if he hits 4000m under 10:20. And if no one follows, he can stay in the race and win 1st place money too.

I threw Longosiwa's name out there because if he's healthy, I think he's fast enough to run 4000m in 10:20, but he hasn't been having a great year so might be interested in a way to make some extra cash.

um, again, why doesn't that cheating punkassbitch doper rupp lead the race?

Agreed. You almost want a guy who can't break 13:05 to save his life but has run 7:38. If he can make a name for himself as a reliable rabbit he can generate some decent cash ongoing. I think that's why Martin Keino became a known rabbit. He was probably making more money than the guys finishing 5th or 6th in the races he was rabbiting, especially when the races went under 12:50 or set a WR. Problem now is, chance of a WR is about zero % currently. I don't think anyone believes they can crack 12:45 right now, let alone 12:40. Would a meet organizer pay much for a guy to go under 12:45 now? In the 90's I think they were.

Don't expect races with ALAMIREW to be fast. Historically, the times haven't been super fast with him in the race.

It's even worse if ALAMIREW and GEBRIJET are both in the race. They have perfected the art of sitting back and letting someone else do the work.

deer fanboy wrote:

um, again, why doesn't that cheating punkassbitch doper rupp lead the race?

Because he's not Bekele at his prime, that's why. Rupp is capable of winning the race, but far from a lock. In fact it's not a safe bet that he would win because there are 5 or more guys keeping him from doing so and at least 2-4 of them will show up with their A game.

If Rupp leads, they will draft and take a ride. He can certainly push the pace but what will happen with 400 to go? The train goes around and Rupp starts to rig. This is racing 101. It's precisely what happened when Rupp pushed the 10,000 at Stanford years ago. Was he capable of leading and beating the AR? Yes, and he did it. But he also did the work for the guys behind him and got nailed for it. When guys are that close in ability, it's generally going to be the one who is leading when pushing the pace who get's nailed.

If he is Bekele or Komen his prime, it's a different story. Look, Kennedy, Ritz, Solinksy and Lagat did not lead or push the pace when they broke the 5000 ARs.

slowpokes wrote:

Don't expect races with ALAMIREW to be fast. Historically, the times haven't been super fast with him in the race.

While ALAMIREW just happens to be CLEANING UP in the Diamond League standings, eh?

We've already been through this multiple times. For Rupp to pretend that he is 'practicing his tactics' with the likes of these tactical specialists is ridiculous, because he does not have their fast gear-changing ability. His best shot of accomplishing something in these races is to at least go after the AR, and he needs to run it wire-to-wire, right behind the rabbits, in order to do that. He has already had opportunity to do that, but the rabbits fell back off pace when nobody went with them.

So yeah, if Rupp gets after it, from the gun, time-trialing, then he might at least get the AR. If he had gotten this memo earlier in the season and tried that, he may have actually taken some scalps and gotten on the podium, because these DL specialists didn't want to have to run fast, especially early on in the season.

But lo-and-behold, we got another DL race non-contender entered for Stockholm, that is fast; maybe can help Rupp out, a guy named Albert Rop. And then there is Levins to perform guard duty. Yep, it's about time Nike trollsters to "get 'er done", eh?

Maybe Ropp will push the pace. These guys have decided to save it for the kick every time out, so all slow races. They need someone like Ropp with the ability and the drive to go for it.

in his world record, bekele ran by himself the last 3k, and picked it up.

ryan foreman wrote:

I'm just learning in this thread that Rupp doesn't have much money. Maybe he should take a job as pacesetter in a 1500M race.

Rupp seems to make okay money--enough to have non-working wife, and take on two little kids. But, he certainly does not make enough to pay for personal pacesetters. Rupp decided not to pay tuition to finish his degree at UofO. Tuition is not cheap when you have to pay for entirely on your own. That should give Rupp's younger fans some idea that winning an Olympic medal does not make you filthy rich.

If you really don't believe he's not only working on, but greatly improving his racing tactics, compare to Zurich in 2012:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=28XpuGehJOw

The two guys who went 1-2 here (ahead of Lagat) were a league ahead of Rupp in 2012, yet this year have not run faster than him. They are in this race so we can see he stacks up again, but there is no doubt that Rupp is at another level from 2012 or 2013. Rupp has had some good 5000's over the past few years, but no consistency at being right in it over the last lap.

It's like Lagat did anything special when he set the 5K AR. No, he just sat and benefitted from a faster race and kicked, same as those before him.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C5eJbkC4iuE

Lagat and Koech have been two of the better 5000m runners over the past 5 years, but it's not like they just go out and win every race, or could do it by just taking the pace.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HlV_TqvxLNY

In 2011-2012 Rupp would have been lucky to finish top 4 in any 3000 or 5000 that was heavily loaded. He did at PRE, but anywhere else? Now he's consistently racing at that level and displacing some top 5000 runners.

Area Man wrote:

What was the EPO era? Was it the late 90's when the 1500/3000 records were set? Was it 2009-2013/present when the half-marathon and marathon WRs were smashed? Was it 2004 when the steeplechase record was set by Shaheen or 2011 when Kipruto matched it? Was it 2010-present when the 800 WR was lowered and there are at least seven active runners who have run 1:42? Was it the late 90's to mid 2000's when the 5k and 10k records were broken? Was it 2014, the year seven men broke 3:30 in the same race?

Not trying to make you look like a dumba$$, just trying to determine precisely when the EPO era was so we're all on the same page.

It is generally accepted to be the 90s - the time when EPO was available, but before a test for it was developed.

As for the current heights of the marathon and distance running, we will be calling the last few years the something era for sure.

There was a clear period when the 5000 and the 10000 were being run consistently faster than they are now. This era coincided with very lax epo testing. Times fell off when epo testing become more rigourous and epo use fell out of favour.

The recent resurgence of distance running is, to me, fueled by a new drug, or new methods. But it is hard to argue that there was not a golden ago of the 5 and ten that was are yet to match.