Burnt out from Double Thresholds

My first thought was- you're going too fast. It's not a simple calculation and if your coach isn't really knowledgeable about the actual science it would be easy to mess up.

you're asking AFTER the season is over?

The paces you listed are too fast for a 16:00 5k runner. The AM session should probably be closer to 6:00 pace and the PM a second or two slower. This circles back to the point that everybody is making: your actual threshold pace is slower than you think, especially for untrained individuals such as high schoolers.

It would be interesting to hear the coach that posted about their athletes doing double T and was measuring lactate. What were the times your athletes were running and their PRs? I think it would be very instructive to see just how slow you need to go.

Just for newbies, MP is ?

Also, is there a warm up and cooldown involved, so the morning session is really 6 miles, and the afternoon session is 5-6 miles, making it an 11-12 mile day? Standard for a college at 80-90mpw levels, but a biy steep for the average HS, and really, even for elite HS, isn't it?

Man... you don't even qualify for hobby jogger level...

lol lol lol

It was obvious from the start that the Norwegian approach is too much for hobbyjoggers. 🦃

I'm curious what you would think, especially for high school girls, about simply taking days off in between DT days? I think rest is often under-valued, and I'm not convinced that for this group (HS girls) there is a lot to be gained on easy days??

I write the offseason training for a couple of kids in my area, and had them do a few double threshold days over the summer. Since they are well trained HS athletes, I figured it would be appropriate for them to do about 2/3rds to 3/4ths of a "standard" Ingebrigtsen day (which tends to be about an hour of running for the reps), so theirs were a total of 40-45 minutes worth of reps. None of us has a lactate meter, but we talked extensively about how all of it should feel very much under control (waaaay more so than "normal" workouts), when in doubt slow down, etc.

Both placed in the top 5 at their state meet. Both performed better at the end of the season relative to their mid-season form than the rest of their team (that didn't do the same summer training). One of them qualified for NXN as an individual.

All sorts of training "works" and all sorts of training "doesn't" - the key is in the details that make the training appropriate and sustainable for the team/individuals.

Jakob does double thresholds because a single threshold workout in a day would not be enough for someone with his level of talent, training history, mileage, time to recover, etc. For most runners, a single threshold session in a day is plenty and the equivalent of Jakob doing a double threshold.

Go listen to Jakob and Herick talking about his training on the Coffee Club podcast. It is not supposed to be hard. He says it is the least risky way that they could train to ensure that they show up on the starting line healthy.

Running easy is undervalued.

MP is marathon pace. There is a warm up and cool down involved. For college athletes a double threshold day is at least 14mi and could be up to 20mi

Interested in this, you found marathon pace was too fast?

My initial reaction was that marathon pace sounded pretty slow for 4x1600 with 90sec rest. For a 16:00 5k runner that would be ~5:50's according to the Daniels calculator. You're using current 5k fitness to determine the paces right? Not say, their goal 5k times or 1500 pr's or something like that? I feel like 4-5 mile reps at MP with short rest should not be spiking lactate levels that high...

I know everyone claims this is to much but, in all honesty, it is not enough stimulus so that's why they are not progressing. If you are in decent physical shape you will be shocked how hard 2-4mmol actually is.... its a miss conception that its easy..... it also takes time to get the benefits because you are trying to achieve adaptation that takes a lot of work and consistency.

There is far more to lose in making HS girls do a double threshold. It is excessive and will lead to quick burnout.

Maybe it's been answered but are you in college? Looks appropriate to me if you stick to the paces. You would typically double either of those sessions for a single session workout. Looks like an introduction to double T work. Are you feeling burned out because you're running additional workouts each week and/or taking the double T too hard?

It's worth pointing out that you don't have a marathon pace. Slow down.

slowly ease into it over the course of several months so you know what your limits are. just randomly copying jakob ain't gonna work for the average person

Where do you buy lactate testing strips? Have been interested in trying this with my team and have a lactate meter but cost of test strips for 20-30 people adds up quickly from places i've tried to buy online, like 50 cents a strip.

Agree with poster that implied that doing double T without testing lactate is irresponsible/recipe for failure

Most high school and even college athletes are less aerobically developed than you might think. I’ve had similar experiences when I test people the first time. Definitely agree with the easy days being super easy comment. Bakken recommends < 70% of max HR on the easy days or sub 1.0 mmol. I don’t think I’ve ever met a competitive HS or college male that would run that easy left to their own devices without clear instructions to run slower.