How Important is Speedwork to break 10k 30min?

Could you provide examples of your tempo work?

What was your average mileage?

Thank you!

As is the case when training for any distance race PR, the simplest training regime is going to be just grinding out race-specific workouts, e.g. Sir Roger Bannister with quarter repeats. But that takes a lot of discipline.

Runner10287 wrote:

Coureur des bois wrote:

My pr for 10k on the track is 29:47 (though it was many years ago.) I still have my workouts documented from way back. I did a total of three interval workouts prior to that 29:47. Two repeat 400 meter workouts and one repeat 600 meter workout. My avg pace for the 4's was 67 with similar pace for the 600's. I just did a lot of tempo runs. So you really don't need a lot of speed work to break 30,

Yeah but was your lifetime miles and training like? Or did you go from couch to 29:47 in one training cycle?

I was up to then and still a relatively low mileage runner. I normally ran between 50-60 miles a week. I did not possess speed. My pr for 400 was only 58 and 2:04 for 800. Yet as I raced longer my times were better, 4:19 mile, 9:03 two miles. Because of my lack of speed, if I did too much speed work, my performances suffered. My body thrived on 8-10 mile tempos. I can remember one winter because of snow, I ran easily (6:30 pace) for a couple of months. I would end some of those easy runs with some 100 meter strides somewhere safe. Off that training I was able to run 30:26 for 10k on the track with really no speed work or even hard running at all. So it is interesting that one can run easily and still race fast.

No, you don`t have to run at 10 k speed in workouts , it`s a superfluous pace in training. You just need 5 k pace and LT -pace when it comes to intervals to run sub 30 if you have the talent for it.

I did similar training on 50-55 mpw. One 20 x 400m at 68 sec with about 1 min rest ( easy walking back to 120 bpm) and one tempo run at 10-12 km at 3:15 min/ km . My PB at 10 k 29:51.

Nice post and one I feel qualified to respond on having broken 30 for the past 12 consecutive years from 2008-2019 (not done so in 2020 yet though plan to).

In these 12 years I've tried all sorts of different methods under different coaches from when I first did it in college, to now in my mid 30s- High mileage, low mileage, lots of tempos, more speed based etc and have to say that there is no right or wrong way to do it and they can all work

Main advice I would give though is actually very simple..

1) Get a quality coach helping you

2) Stick to their training with full buy in

3) Back yourself that you've got it, both with discipline in training and belief on race day

jamin wrote:

As is the case when training for any distance race PR, the simplest training regime is going to be just grinding out race-specific workouts, e.g. Sir Roger Bannister with quarter repeats. But that takes a lot of discipline.

It doesn`t take a lot of discipline if you run only 50-55 mpw and then run your individual exact best controlled paces . It has been proven to be a guaranteed way to improve your PB:s.

John - UK wrote:

Nice post and one I feel qualified to respond on having broken 30 for the past 12 consecutive years from 2008-2019 (not done so in 2020 yet though plan to).

In these 12 years I've tried all sorts of different methods under different coaches from when I first did it in college, to now in my mid 30s- High mileage, low mileage, lots of tempos, more speed based etc and have to say that there is no right or wrong way to do it and they can all work

Main advice I would give though is actually very simple..

1) Get a quality coach helping you

2) Stick to their training with full buy in

3) Back yourself that you've got it, both with discipline in training and belief on race day

Good advice. One important piece of advice to add. Enjoy the type of training/workouts. Enjoyment will bring success.

I've gone in the low 29's (29:1X) and I haven't done much speed work ever. All I usually do in a training block is a couple strides a week. Usually start at around race pace and cut down to fast. But there's only about 200m a week below 4:20 pace. I also have still never broken 60 in a 400, but I suspect I could run 56 or better it I went for it.

Although when I first broke 30 I was definitely not able to break 60 in the 400, so you don't need to be all that quick but a 4:48 mile needs to feel very easy.

Well, to get better you need to overload your system and allow for supercompensation. Maybe there are some people out there who can run 30min with no training and maybe there are some who could do it off just "easy" miles (a lot of them), but even then they will pick up the intensity as faster becomes "easier".

But I suspect 99.999999% of us would need to do some faster paced running in order to get faster once running easy no longer overloads the system to provide a training stimulus.

Coureur des bois wrote:

My pr for 10k on the track is 29:47 (though it was many years ago.) I still have my workouts documented from way back. I did a total of three interval workouts prior to that 29:47. Two repeat 400 meter workouts and one repeat 600 meter workout. My avg pace for the 4's was 67 with similar pace for the 600's. I just did a lot of tempo runs. So you really don't need a lot of speed work to break 30,

This is getting into semantics a bit, but I would classify "tempo" run (a term I hate for its ambiguity) as speed work since it is faster than "just going out for a run" pace.

Also, you had NEVER done anything faster than speed work in your life or just not in the training cycle immediately proceeding the 10K?

talent beats training wrote:

To answer the OP, breaking 30 depends on your talent level. Nenow could have run 40 MPW at 7 minute pace to break 30 because it is 2:40 slower than his potential. I broke 30 by running 70 MPW and doing some tempos but no real speedwork. Nenow breaking 30 is like me running 32:40 which I could have done on 30 MPW. People always ask these questions without providing enough background.

Here is an interesting segment from the post above "I didn’t get on a track except to race. I think looking back on that, it was to my detriment for sure."

HardHard wrote:

maaaybe.. wrote:

This is amazing. But dont you guys think that, given what we might know about sport physiology and how 99% of other athletes train, the guy was probably underperforming?

Probably not. The hard/easy approach is not the 'best' approach for everyone. Some kind of runners react better to lots of steady miles. Steve Jones trained in a similar way and i can't say he underperformed...

To the OP, under 30 10k won't happen without a great base speed and I don't believe that everyone can do it just with specific training. You need a fair amount of natural talent.

What do you think the "hard/easy approach" is?

I once thought it meant hard day, easy day, hard day, repeated. I later realized it can be hard day, hard day, easy day. It is still a "hard/easy" pattern. Some can do that, others cannot. I cannot remember where I read it (maybe Men of Oregon) Kenny Moore talking about how Pre could go hard 2 days in a row, but it would kill Moore. Bowerman figured this out and adjusted training for each. I would say it worked pretty well for both.

Internetsherlock wrote:

Is it mandatory to do speed work to break 30min on race day?

Do some runners break 30 just by hard efforts on long runs during training ?

Can someone please share some info on this... thanks

Is it mandatory? No. There are examples of guys who have run well under 30 without doing interval work. There's Mark Nenow's example above. Ron Clarke ran 27:39 without doing interval work. Dick Taylor, the British version did 28:06 off of steady runs. Michael Musyoki got an Olympic medal at 10,000 off of steady runs. But these guys were doing their steady runs at pretty fast paces as well as a good many miles. And generally they raced a lot more at shorter distances than is common now which is a form of speed training. There are probably one legged Kenyan grandfathers who could jog 40 minutes a day at 9:00 pace and get under 30 but you're going to need to do some sort of faster work whether it's fast, steady runs, regular races, intervals, unless you're as naturally talented as those one legged Kenyan grandfathers.

Profile:

Gerard Segura (Stade Laurentin/Nice, France)

Height -1:68

Weight: 50kg

Occupation: Youth récréation officer

1500-3:56

5000-14:40

10,000-29:54

25km -1:20

Monday - 20km, starting at 4:30 per km, last 5km at 3:45 pace

Tuesday- 20km, same as Monday

Wednesday 20km, same

Thursday -track - 8 times 1k, average 3:05-3:10 with 1:30 jog in between

Friday - rest

Saturday - 15km fartlek, fast and slow

Sunday - hill reps in Parc la Valmasque, mix of 3-5 mins reps, total 20 km including jogs

Note: All running on hard packed dirt trails, Parc Vaugrenier, V Villeneuve-Loubet Parc de la Valmasque Mougins

talent beats training wrote:

No. I know many people who run 30 MPW at 8 minute pace. They enter 3 or 4 races per year and run a 19 minute 5k. Everybody can get off of the couch and run some type of pace. Talented people run much faster. Imagine somebody running a 10 minute mile today for the first time. Your logic is that they had to run 4x400 at 2:30 previously to learn the speed. But that is not true. I answered your other question by using Nenow as the example. Yes he could run an easy 30 minute 10k because he was in shape for a 27 minute 10k. But he could have run a hard 30 minute 10k without training.

Are you seriously comparing a 19 minute 5k to a sub-30 minute 10k? A 19 minute 5k is not fast. Granted, that's very fast for some people, but it's not fast in the sense that it actually requires much speed work. You'll reach that time a lot faster if you do some speed work to get more efficient at faster paces, but you can still reach it otherwise. But a 30 minute 10k? That's crazy fast. That's well over 12mph. The lactic fatigue rate at that speed is high, so to hold that pace for more than ten minutes you need to have seriously efficient muscles to back up your aerobic base. I sincerely doubt there is anyone who could run sub-30 without training hard for it.

I'd like to hear Malmo's take on this.

Luv2Run wrote:

talent beats training wrote:

To answer the OP, breaking 30 depends on your talent level. Nenow could have run 40 MPW at 7 minute pace to break 30 because it is 2:40 slower than his potential. I broke 30 by running 70 MPW and doing some tempos but no real speedwork. Nenow breaking 30 is like me running 32:40 which I could have done on 30 MPW. People always ask these questions without providing enough background.

Here is an interesting segment from the post above "I didn’t get on a track except to race. I think looking back on that, it was to my detriment for sure."

I think it is a stretch to say guys like Nenow didn't do work outs. He didn't to track work. He did a lot of runs on the road that would count as tempo type runs. Or things like going up some of those hills hard. For a while there was as school of long fast distance where guys would go out and crank out 10 milers at 5:00 pace (call it marathon pace) a couple time/week. Those weren't easy runs...

My 10,000m pr is 29:05, which is roughly 69 and change per lap. My 400m best was sub 50. I also had a 1:52 800m and a 4:04 open mile pr. Speed is mandatory to do it.