Ivy vs. NESCAC

Can't speak for the Ivy experience but can for NESCAC. Went to Wesleyan and really liked the balance between academics, sports and social life. The DI athletes I know began to look at sports as a job or obligation. Never felt pressured at Wesleyan, so sports remained fun and enjoyable. A welcome break from studying. I'm encouraging all my kids to give NESCAC schools strong consideration.

Don't get me wrong, NESCAC has some great schools but you should go Ivy if you get accepted. In the long term, running literally means nothing. It's just a hobby and no you will never ever be anywhere near what it takes to make a profession out of it. Goto the Ivy League school. The reputation of the schools alone will pay you dividends for the rest of your life.

Williams and Amherst are amazing schools but the name doesn't carry half as far as Harvard or Princeton.

If you have truly "run what's necessary" to get into Ivies, then you should be an automatic all-American in D3. Some guys don't like that idea--they don't want to be a big fish in a small pond, they want to develop into a big fish in a *big* pond--but you should know the realities of the situation.

One further reality is that guys who are competitive at the top level of Ivies are also competitive at the D1 national level in most events. Ivy competitive standards have skyrocketed in recent years--they were good when I coached Ivy, some decades back, but are much stronger (in most events) now.

One other thing to be alert to is that it's very possible your family's bottom-line expense (to send you to college) might be lower at the Ivies.

Finally, I'll say that the Ivy League championship meets (aka "Heps") are the most intense championship meets I've ever attended (including NCAA nationals). Many, many spectators and they *really* care.

BTW all of this assumes you're male. Situation for females might be somewhat different.

StickySteve wrote:

Rising senior looking to go to either an Ivy or a NESCAC. Just so I don't have to post my times, let's assume that I have the grades and have run what's necessary to run at and get into schools in both conferences. What are the differences between the two (besides of course the obvious difference in divisions)? What are the pros and cons to each? Please don't just talk smack about the other, I want to hear some legitimate points.

I have a higher end Ivy degree and a low end NESCAC one.

If you get into H-Y-P go. If you don't but get into Williams or Amherst go there. They are better schools than any of the remaining Ivies and will serve you better long term. As an undergrad they are the equivalent of H-Y-P with without the brand name.

It gets murkier after that. Location, small vs large, running program, money, gut feel all start to matter more. The Cornells and Penns of the world aren't nearly as impressive as their grads think, but absolutely nobody knows Trinity or Hamilton or Conn or Colby or Bates outside the North East. So think about where you want to live after school. If it's not New England, head to an Ivy school if possible.

But PS, after Amherst and Williams the admissions process is MUCH easier at the rest of the NESCAC than even the worst Ivies, which are Cornell and Penn.

To echo what the others say Williams and Amherst are both fantastic schools that will take you just as far as any ivy. If given the opportunity HYP may be a stronger choice academically but you might not enjoy running to the same extent. While in highschool running may be a priority you will be suprised in college at what other things you become interested in. Suddenly running is no longer the focus in your life. The Nescacs will give you more freedom to commit to running only what you want to commit to it. You won't be a slave. That being said running for the ivy's can be a complete blast. Heps is wild. Tufts and Bowdoin are also solid schools. Word of advice don't go to Dartmouth.

Wealthy Industrialist wrote:

But PS, after Amherst and Williams the admissions process is MUCH easier at the rest of the NESCAC than even the worst Ivies, which are Cornell and Penn.

Spotted the Dartmouth grad :)

agdsfadsf wrote:

Wealthy Industrialist wrote:

But PS, after Amherst and Williams the admissions process is MUCH easier at the rest of the NESCAC than even the worst Ivies, which are Cornell and Penn.

Spotted the Dartmouth grad :)

I think you mean Brown grad :)

Pangarang wrote:

Word of advice don't go to Dartmouth.

Why not?

agdsfadsf wrote:

Wealthy Industrialist wrote:

But PS, after Amherst and Williams the admissions process is MUCH easier at the rest of the NESCAC than even the worst Ivies, which are Cornell and Penn.

Spotted the Dartmouth grad :)

I said higher end Ivy degree. Start with the beginning of H-Y-P

Anyway here's the list

1 Harvard

2-3 Yale Princeton

4-5 Columbia Dartmouth

6-8 save your money.

Wealthy Industrialist wrote:

agdsfadsf wrote:

Spotted the Dartmouth grad :)

I said higher end Ivy degree. Start with the beginning of H-Y-P

Anyway here's the list

1 Harvard

2-3 Yale Princeton

4-5 Columbia Dartmouth

6-8 save your money.

Spotted the Dartmouth grad :)

Wealthy Industrialist wrote:

I said higher end Ivy degree. Start with the beginning of H-Y-P

Anyway here's the list

1 Harvard

2-3 Yale Princeton

4-5 Columbia Dartmouth

6-8 save your money.

This list is laughable. Harvard has a great name but doesn't care at all about undergrad. If you are into computers/science, which is the one guaranteed area where jobs are going to exist in 25 years, then I'd put Cornell near the top of the list.

Send in a resume with Harvard or Cornell/Penn listed under "Education" to any business See which one goes to the top of the list. I think we have someone commenting here who has not been in corporate America for a while.

Harvard bashers are numerous but they are rarely decision makers of note.

You need an axe to clear out the dead wood at Harvard.

At least 30% of that school is comprised of kids who have no academic right to be there.

Harvard has always been a spot for the ruling elite to send their kids. No different now.

DadFan wrote:

Send in a resume with Harvard or Cornell/Penn listed under "Education" to any business See which one goes to the top of the list. I think we have someone commenting here who has not been in corporate America for a while.

Harvard bashers are numerous but they are rarely decision makers of note.

In the world of high finance, many people would rather hire someone with Wharton on their resume than Harvard.

No, everything else alike, a Harvard grad is much more marketable in high finance than a Wharton grad. A place that's just looking for bodies to burn out may prefer a Wharton grad because they already have some of the rudimentary trade skills, but if your hanging your hat on already knowing excel shortcuts, you may aiming for the wrong hatstand. Now, you may see more Wharton grads in investment banking or other entry level jobs, but that's because Harvard folks ain't applying for those anymore. The banks take what they can get.

To the OP, I went to NESCAC for undergrad and Ivy for grad school. I'm happy with those choices. Painting with a broad brush, I think most that I know enjoyed their undergrad at NESCAC schools more than Ivy Leaguers enjoyed their time - the schools are smaller and more personal. The education is generally better. It's true than most Ivy's have better brand names, especially with the general public, but that doesn't matter much in the end.

Think a bit about what you may want to do - a few fields that care a lot about pedigree, notably management consulting at the brand name places - don't hire much from the NESCAC schools, other than Williams and Amherst (or at least they didn't, I may be dated). That could be true for investment banking at some NESCACs as well.

Think about the academics. Obviously, NESCAC schools for the most part don't have engineering or very deep science departments. You get more time with professors who care more, but there is less breadth and less depth - if you want to focus on string theory, for example, your NESCAC of choice may happen to have a string theorist, or it may not - but Princeton will have a whole sub-department.

If you are a true genius, you should probably go to a top Ivy or MIT/Caltech. You won't have many peers at the NESCAC, but you may at the Ivies, especially with their grad programs.

For the vast majority of fields, the degrees from top NESCACs will be equivalent to the Ivies. No med school, law school or grad program cares that you went to Swarthmore rather Harvard.

Finally, as noted above, there is a huge range in terms of prestige within those groupings. Harvard, Yale, Princeton, Stanford, MIT, Caltech are at the top of Ivy +. Columbia is a step down, and Penn, Brown and Dartmouth are another step down, with Cornell seen as being last.

For the masses, nothing will beat the name recognition of an Ivy. But among the well educated, I think most would place Amherst and Williams at the Penn / Brown / Dartmouth level or maybe with Columbia. Many would thrown Pomona and Swarthmore right there as well, or perhaps a bit lower, with Bowdoin, Middlebury and Cornell. It's a big step down after that to Bates, Colby, Conn, Hamilton, etc.

If you want to impress a date at a roadside bar in rural Kansas, Williams ain't gonna do it. But the vast majority of employers or schools will consider a degree from Williams and one from Columbia to be equivalent. And you'd probably enjoy your time at Williams more.

Rojo wrote:

Wealthy Industrialist wrote:

I said higher end Ivy degree. Start with the beginning of H-Y-P

Anyway here's the list

1 Harvard

2-3 Yale Princeton

4-5 Columbia Dartmouth

6-8 save your money.

This list is laughable. Harvard has a great name but doesn't care at all about undergrad. If you are into computers/science, which is the one guaranteed area where jobs are going to exist in 25 years, then I'd put Cornell near the top of the list.

If you are looking for a manager of the local Doubletree, Cornell is your school!

It's beyond dispute that Harvard has the best brand name in education in the world. Absolutely beyond dispute. Quibble about specific programs all you want, but that's the only university in the world that everyone universally recognizes as the best.

StickySteve wrote:

Rising senior looking to go to either an Ivy or a NESCAC. Just so I don't have to post my times, let's assume that I have the grades and have run what's necessary to run at and get into schools in both conferences. What are the differences between the two (besides of course the obvious difference in divisions)? What are the pros and cons to each? Please don't just talk smack about the other, I want to hear some legitimate points.

1) You can get an excellent education at any of those colleges in either league.

2) While a degree from HYP will raise eyebrows for hiring managers (I know, because I act as hiring manager for some of the companies for which I contract), a degree from Williams or Amherst is excellent too. I know a very capable guy who is the head of a software company, and he went to Devry University, so you can make it without an Ivy League education.

3) I would think of the Ivy League as a bunch of separate colleges and then the schools in the NESCAC also as a bunch of separate schools. Not that great to compare league to league. Brown (very liberal and more laid back) is very different from Yale for example.

4) I would find the school that fits you best. Do you like a more competitive, cutthroat academic atmosphere, or would you like a more collaborative one? Do the research to see which schools are which. Obviously, find the school that offers the classes you want to take. Finally, where do you want to spend 4 years of your life? This is worth considering. Dorms, food, activities in and around campus, ration of men to women, etc.

Good luck in your decision.

Went to a NESCAC, worked for a top-3 consulting firm, knew plenty of people at Ivies:

Ivies have more brand name among the overall population for sure

For the most part, places that need to know about good schools rate Amherst/Williams right alongside the top Ivies -- Med Schools, Law Schools, Consulting Firms (not banks quite as much, because those two schools are less pre-professional), Teach For America, whatever.

Much more opportunity to choose your own commitment level at NESCACs. Our track team had people training for Olympic Trials and people running basically to stay in shape.

Academic interests could be a big driver of choice -- definitely less pre-professional or technical/engineering at NESCAC schools, but you get a lot more focus from better professors than at Ivies. The classes are taught by actual professors, not by grad students.

Tough to go wrong either way. I got into a top level NESCAC (W/A) and top level Ivy (H/Y/P) and chose the NESCAC and am glad I did. (Also got to be a core member and captain of the team vs. borderline contributor -- while it might sound cool being 'on' a D1 team, it's probably a lot more fun day-to-day being at the heart of a D3 team)