Jack Daniels 2Q'ing Again - Long Run Advice

I know it sounds counterintuitive but it's really important to get a "shorter" interval workout in.

It's not to add to your aerobic abilities but to improve economy. If you want to run 1200s at a specific pace, you need to be able to run 1000s slightly faster, and 800s slightly faster, and 400s slightly faster, and 200s even a little faster than the 400s. These don't need to be that fast but a base of speed will help you all the way up your intervals. The logic behind it is used by coaches around the world, including the likes of Salazar and Canova.

Yes, stick to Jack's long run schedule. You will be ready. It has worked well for many.

I wouldn't worry too much about not having had enough long runs. Sounds like you got a good number of full bodied long runs in.

The long runs with the tempo miles in between also feel a lot farther than the mileage would suggest. I used the Daniels approach in the two marathons that I ran, and I had a fair amount of success with it. I definitely did not feel underprepared. Just make sure to get those integrated long run/tempo efforts in.

As to the suggestion that you run some shorter intervals, I would probably avoid that at this point. I agree with coach of coaches that running faster than your race pace has benefits, but you are already doing that by running at tempo pace. The time for the shorter and faster intervals ended probably about a month ago.

You're training for the last 16 miles of the Marathon, not the first 16. You need to train on tired legs. Do your runs.

Honestly, I cannot overstate how well prepared the combined tempo/long runs make you feel. There is something about having to do a 20 minute tempo run 14 miles into a run, with 4 of those 14 having already been at tempo pace, that makes you mentally prepared for the grind of the last 10k of the marathon.

As an example, here is a 20 miler with about 7 miles of tempo work mixed in that is part of the Daniels approach.

2 mi up; 4 x 1 mile at tempo pace w/:60-:80 rest; 8 mi easy; 20 min tempo; 2.3 down

Thanks for the affirmation, Smoove and all!

The Jack Daniels approach is quite a bit different from my previous training, so it's good to hear some positive feedback. I'm 6 weeks in to the 2Q program, so I do know what you're talking about regarding the workouts in the middle of long runs. I've never run tempo pace for an extended period of time within a long run prior to Jack Daniels, and it's definitely a challenge.

I have noticed steady improvement, so it's encouraging. It's just that I expected a few more 20 milers in my future to build up endurance and was somewhat surprised to see only 2. However, it seems reasonable that bumping up weekly mileage and running mid-long-run-workouts should make up for a few extra miles.

I couldn't help myself and looked at the next mileage bracket of 71-86MPW, and Jack only adds one more mile to the long runs -- the hard way. In other words, instead of 6x1k at I pace in the middle of the run, he's got 8x1k, etc.. I think I'll stick with the current program and see how it goes! With the extra mileage and the tough workouts and a prior history of injury, I don't want the wheels to fly off the cart!!

Those 32 mile marathons are killer.

JackD wrote:

You're training for the last 16 miles of the Marathon, not the first 16. You need to train on tired legs. Do your runs.

Nutrition PhD wrote:

Those 32 mile marathons are killer.

JackD wrote:

You're training for the last 16 miles of the Marathon, not the first 16. You need to train on tired legs. Do your runs.

If he had only said "you're training for the last six miles", does that mean a marathon is 12 miles?

I'm doing 2Q again and have two comments:

1) it took me 3 months to get the base to even start, meaning, the plan kind of starts at 100% mileage, i.e. there is no buildup. Stick to the mileage you've been doing. If you've been doing 50 mpw, don't bump it to 63 mpw AND attempts the workout at the same time. Do one of the two, but not both at same time.

2) in that spirit, if you've worried about time of your feet, run slower. I'm a sub 1:24 HM runner, yet I do runs as slow as 9:30-10:30 min/mi when needed. Instead of some of the M-T-L workouts, do some L workouts only at 8:00 or slower. That's 15 miles in two hours, or 20 miles in 2:40. That's plenty time on your feet. Or just do the E w/u slower.

For example 10 @ 8:30 and 10 @ 7:00 gets you past 2:30.

Out of curiosity, what do you run your E pace at?

For me E = 8:30 at most (often slower), M = 6:45-7:05 and T = 6:15-6:35 (depending on days, miles, tiredness, temp etc.). I'm not quite towards sub 3, more like 3:05-3:10 despite the 1:24 half.

You?

Best of luck by the way. I love the non-steady MLT runs...

You run 17 miles in 2.04, maybe 20 miles in 2.26.

How do you suppose to run a sub 3 marathon?

Be realistic.

Klingon heart wrote:

You run 17 miles in 2.04, maybe 20 miles in 2.26.

How do you suppose to run a sub 3 marathon?

Be realistic.

He talked about workouts. Not all-out efforts. What are you talking about?

I could not agree with you more on that point. It's almost like you have to be "marathon ready" BEFORE you start training. I had been averaging 55MPW for the preceding 10 weeks before jumping into the program, and I ran Boston in April and never took a break between. I jumped into the 2Q plan in the 14th week to goal race, but I had been doing similar distance and was running my long runs as 1/2 easy and then 1/2 "fast" (probably my M pace at the time). The 2Q workouts were challenging and I was slowly wandering away from goal paces near the ends of the T work, especially. The past 3 or 4 workouts were pretty much spot on and I'm feeling less tired, though, so there appears to be hope!

I've been running E runs at 7:30 to 7:45 pace, but lately I've found myself in the 7:20s on a few E runs. I'm a little hesitant to run slower because of my HR. For an 8 miler @ 7:43, I average about 132bpm. A recent 9 miler @ 7:20 averaged 139bpm. A recent 4 miler @ 8:33 averaged 123bpm, so I'm thinking that going slower might not give me any aerobic benefit, but that's just my theory.

There are 2 upcoming 20 milers that will be 2:30 plus, but the rest are mainly 16 and 17 "workout" long runs which will probably get me around or a little over the 2 hour mark. Everybody seems to think that Jack's plan works, so I'm willing to give it a try. I had considered tacking on an E mile or two to the end of the runs just to get a few more minutes...BUT...if those minutes don't really matter and it's all about the pace and the miles, then I don't necessarily need to tack on minutes just for the sake of it!

I haven't run a HM as a standalone race in the past couple years, but I'm going to try to find one about a month out from this upcoming Marathon. My previous HM PR was 1:26 with around 40MPW, but I'm sure I'm in better shape now. I'd probably shoot for 1:25 and then pick it up or hang on at the halfway point depending on how it went! My most recent race was 2 months ago: a 5k @ 18:21. I've put in some good miles since then, so I should be a little more fit than that. Boston was tough because I had only 4 weeks of solid training plus 2 taper weeks. I was 5 lbs heavier and not in the best shape of my life and managed a 3:11. If I were to run a Marathon today, I'd say I have a very good shot at a 3:05. Sub 3:00 is definitely pushing it, but I do still have 8 weeks left...speaking of that...do you find any particular correlation between your workouts and actual Marathon pace? For instance, my most recent 17 miler was 8E (7:47)+8M (6:45)+1E (8:02). Would that indicate at all that I should be able to hold 6:45 for a full 26.2? It was at the end of a 70 mile week.

Thanks for the feedback! I really appreciate it! Good luck to you, too!!!

I guess I need to make a clarifying statement here:

I honestly am not sure what the Daniels 2Q plan is. I based my plan on one of the plans in Daniels Running Formula, 2nd edition. It was Marathon Plan A in that book.

That being said, it sounds like many of the same principals carried through, particularly the principal of mixing tempo miles into your long runs.

For what it is worth, I managed a 2:35 at age 43 on a toughish course on a terrible weather day and a 2:30 on a warm (but not terrible) day at age 44, winning a masters title at one of the country's top marathons using Daniels' approach.

@ Smoove.I was going to say i have never known anyone who has found their best success using the Daniel's plan, but then i see your post. i usually agree with your posts so i'm giving you the benefit of the doubtyour 20 miler sounds very uncomfortable...which makes me think it is good for marathon prep. I like the idea. How far out do you do it from the race? 5-6 weeks?i raced my fastest HM 4 weeks before a marathon. After the race i immediately did a 5-mile cool down and then did a lot of stretching. To follow up, that week i did 5 x mile @ 5k pace, then on Sunday i did a 5 mile warmup, ran a half marathon race at goal marathon race pace (hit it exactly) then did a 4 mile cooldown for 22 miles on the day, about 90 seconds of standing during the entire affairit was a tiring week, but ultimately what made me confident for the race. after that, all i focused on was one hard tempo and not getting sick/hurt. it was good

Smoove wrote:

Honestly, I cannot overstate how well prepared the combined tempo/long runs make you feel. There is something about having to do a 20 minute tempo run 14 miles into a run, with 4 of those 14 having already been at tempo pace, that makes you mentally prepared for the grind of the last 10k of the marathon.

As an example, here is a 20 miler with about 7 miles of tempo work mixed in that is part of the Daniels approach.

2 mi up; 4 x 1 mile at tempo pace w/:60-:80 rest; 8 mi easy; 20 min tempo; 2.3 down

That workout was 10 weeks out. I posted my training log from 12 weeks out on a separate thread. Here it is if you are curious.

http://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?board=1&id=7509668&thread=7506587#7509668

Yes, the 2Q plan features the Marathon, Threshold, and Interval paces mixed into long runs, similar to what you were doing but at a much slower pace. I took a look at your training for the Chicago Marathon, and I see that you did have a lot of 20+ mile runs in there, but you are running on a completely different level than I am. I'm willing to give Jack Daniels' program a try.

I will know for certain whether or not my long runs were long enough after 20 miles into the Marathon! :)

Principle is still the same even if we run at different paces - those mixed long runs add up to more miles than they seem like on paper.

My humble opinion is that your E runs are quite fast, but who knows, maybe you are in much better shape than sub-3? VDOT 55 has E pace range from 7:20-8:20, so it's not that far off, and you've been running decent but modest mileage so as long as you're not straining, 7:30-8:00 is quite enough. Don't worry about the "aerobic benefit" if you need to go slower some days, if you're tired etc. I find a lot of the easy mileage to be beneficial for the musculo-skeletal system, not just aerobic development.

I used Daniels for my half, and it correlated VERY WELL. I ran 6:15-6:20 for T pace, which is a smidge faster than 1/2 marathon pace, and in the race averaged 6:25 for the 13.1, very steady despite a challenging hilly route.

Correlating M pace is difficult though for guys like me (I suck at marathons with a PR 3:16). I think that his range is correct, but getting to the goal is difficult. Consistent mileage and seldom very hard workouts is I think a great approach (i.e. the "2Q") so keep at it!

Your example "17 miler was 8E (7:47)+8M (6:45)+1E (8:02)" means you are not far off, that's for sure. Don't "test yourself" every workout though, keep the race for race day! The below was a great workout and should require decent recovery. Best of luck and keep us posted! Like you I've jumped in at week 14, after 10-12 weeks of consistent 55 mpw. In the past I was building up and doing workouts, and got injured. The fact that here you built base first is very good. What's your goal race?

7:30 Sounds right wrote:

Klingon heart wrote:

You run 17 miles in 2.04, maybe 20 miles in 2.26.

How do you suppose to run a sub 3 marathon?

Be realistic.

He talked about workouts. Not all-out efforts. What are you talking about?

With those times & workouts a sub-3 is not going to happen, aside from miracles.

Anyway, dreaming is good for the soul.