Let Me Get This Right Re: NOP Drug Scandal

It's been obvious for years that Jerry is the superior coach in comparison to Alberto. One believes hard work over time will work, the other appears to believe that in addition to hard work, "gray" areas must be employed to have a chance to beat the best.

Does Jerry carry Androgel around?

Thought so.

How many of Schumacher's former athletes have called USADA or gone to the press with concerns?

Alberto may venture into the "gray area," however you want to define it.But Schumacher is not a better coach.

Of the major elite coaches on the scene in America right now (Jerry, Alberto, Rowland, Vig, Gags, Cook), no one has done less with more talent. Jager time and again has proven himself a consistently shining star of the Schumacher program--his accomplishments are truly remarkable.

But beyond him, the results are less than sterling. Teg and Solinsky ran some incredible times--then ran themselves into the ground. Lomong was one of the more promising 1500/5000m runners to settle into the Jerry camp--but has failed to translate that talent into anything more than WC/Olympic bids. And for all her marathons, Shalane's greatest success remains the Oly bronze she won under Cook.

The Ghost of Caesar wrote:

Alberto may venture into the "gray area," however you want to define it.But Schumacher is not a better coach.

Of the major elite coaches on the scene in America right now (Jerry, Alberto, Rowland, Vig, Gags, Cook), no one has done less with more talent. Jager time and again has proven himself a consistently shining star of the Schumacher program--his accomplishments are truly remarkable.

But beyond him, the results are less than sterling. Teg and Solinsky ran some incredible times--then ran themselves into the ground. Lomong was one of the more promising 1500/5000m runners to settle into the Jerry camp--but has failed to translate that talent into anything more than WC/Olympic bids. And for all her marathons, Shalane's greatest success remains the Oly bronze she won under Cook.

It's not as if US distance running was this global force and now suddenly the well is dry. 20 years ago the only guys with a prayer of even being CONSIDERED for a medal at a championship event were Bob Kennedy and Todd Williams. It's not an indictment of Jerry's coaching at all that there haven't been a slew of medals won by his runners.

It's certainly true that U.S. distance running was not as good as it is now--but I'm also not sure that really refutes my point.

My point is that Schumacher has enjoyed a truly extraordinary level of talent in the athletes he coaches--a level of talent so incredible, in fact, that it should have translated into medals by now.

A sub-13 and sub-27:00 10k runner; a 3:32 1500 runner with a monster kick and sub-13 5k potential; a sub-13 5k runner with 8:07 2 mile chops to boot; an 8:00+ steeple-chaser; a women with a 30:22 10k PR. These are world-class PRs, and there is no reason that such a training group should not be the most decorated in the country. But for a combination of reasons--injury, over-aggressive training, poor race tactics, shoddy peaking--it hasn't happened.

Cook, with Rowbury and Shalane; Rowland, with Symmonds; Wetmore, with Simpson; Vig, with Martinez--these coaches have all been blessed with some driven and truly talented athletes, but none of them has been blessed with as many, at the same time, as Schumacher. And yet they all have more medals to their name than Jerry does.

It's a wonderful thing to be in a position now to hold medalling as the standard of success for American running, and I know I will be rooting hard for Jager at this year's WCs, along with plenty of others; if he wins a medal, it will be a testament to Jerry's coaching, no less than to Jager's talent, drive, and savvy. But it's nevertheless the case that medalling *is* the standard, and for all the likeability of Jerry's crew, it's a standard he falls short of--despite the medal-caliber talent he's overseen now for a pretty long period of time.

Let me get wrote:

So, just for clarity: The High School National Record Holder at 5,000m (13:37), has been nearly injury-free his entire career and has had the benefit of having coaching continuity for nearly that entire time also, is considered to have suspiciously improved over his career...yet:

Evan Jager

Chris Derrick

Chris Solinksy

Matt Tegenkamp

Ryan Hill

Lopez Lomong

Etc. Basically Jerry's entire group has improved more than Rupp post HS and post college.

None of this is suspicious?

Does Rupp actually have so little talent compared to these guys that he can use PEDs, get access to all the latest gadgets, remain injury-free, train with the best runner in the world, have coaching continuity and after that, still lose to undoped, "blue-collar" runners?

Rupp should get a refund for his performance enhancements if that were the case.

THere are several reasons for this. The reason why their is a doping investigation now is because several members of the NOP project have gone to both USADA and the press with concerns. Kara Goucher was both in the NOP and part of Jerry's group. She didn't make similar allegations against Jerry.

Now why for years have been people speculating about it on the boards? I'd say it's because many of the allegatiosn that are now public were being talked about behind the scenes.

So the reason why we have the debate is simple. People have come forward. The reason why we don't hear about it with the other groups is they aren't known to hand out prescription pills like it's candy.

Moving on to your false assumption that the reason why we are having a doping scandal is simply because Rupp has improved a lot, I'll address that now.

Rupp's improvement does raise eyebrows for some. It's not because he's gotten faster but mainly because he went from not having a kick to having a lethal kick. He went from being a very good NCAA runner but without a kick - much like Chris Derrick - to absolutely dominating. He went from being a guy who had never broken 4:00 in the mile to pulling off an incredibly NCAA tirple whee not only did he anchor the DMR to victory, he also won the 5000 and 3000. He went from not being able to break 4:00 to running 3:50 in the mile.

In terms of comparing the runners talent levels, I think it's all about when you compare them.

You act like Jerry's guys were a) worse than Rupp in HS and b) Have improved a lot more since college.

I dont know if either assertion is true. Let's stick the comparson to American born runners and the biggest studs in Jerry's group - "

Evan Jager

Chris Derrick

Chris Solinksy

Matt Tegenkamp

and compare them to Rupp in terms of promise as a teen/in HS.

Before I start to do that, remember it's a hard comparison to make. WHy? Coaching. Remember, Rupp is getting professional coaching in HS, Solinsky and others are training with some random dude in the middle of nowhere. So it's hard to say which is better. Rupp running 4:01 in HS with a pro coach of Jager running 4:05.

Ok here's the comparison:

Teg: You could argue Teg wasn't as good as Rupp in HS necessarily but it can be said that was as a junior (sub-20). Teg beat Ritz at US juniors in xc and was 5th in the world in xc.

Solinsky : Chris was the a foot locker champion in HS. His margin of victory - 21 seconds is the largest in history. Based on that alone, I view him as a much better HS talent than Rupp.

Derrick: Like Solinsky, Derrick was an XC champ in HS. He won NXN and was 2nd at FLocker. As a freshman at Stanford, he broke RUpp's 13:37 US jr record. So, in terms of talent, this is a wash with Rupp. Rupp might have some more speed.

Jager: He ran 3:41 as a frosh at Wisco and was 8th at World juniors. In terms of speed, he certainly had more of it than RUpp at that age (151 hs 800). The next year, he ran 3:38 at age 20 and 3 months. Rupp wouldn't run 3:38 until he was 26.

So considering Rupp has the best PRs at 1500/mile and 10,000, I don't know how you can say Jerry's guys have improved more than Rupp.

At age 23, Solinsky had run 13:12, Rupp had run 13:18, Teg had run 13:25 but would run 13:04 at 24.

So disagree - Solinsky, fantastic performance in 10k, great talent from an early age, but probably not the kind of turnover that can run away from the world elite, times are important!!! Jerry got much from Chris and he was not the ideal distance body. Teg, sub 13, AR 2 mile 8:07.07, very good, long career, again not ideal distance body, even though he had a good 1500 PR, he did not have the ability to run away from the African runners, Jerry did an excellent job with someone who had many injuries, but nevertheless had a long, successful career. Evan, come on are your serious, maybe the best distance performances for an American born runner. Still improving!!! Many of the others did not start with him and as a coach, myself, I know how difficult it is to have instant success with all of them. Takes time and the athletes have to buy in to the coaches methods, etc. If not, it may never work. It's a two way street.

Jerry is paid very nicely by Nike for a reason; he is one of the best in the world and is getting better all of the time. Look how we competed in the worlds and oly games in the distance races in the 80's and 90's - we are having much more success in a very tough competition against the best in the world. We will never dominate the world in distance - enjoy are successes and quit being so critical.

Have done some nice work with PR's, etc. and that is nice, but comparing Solinsky, Teg, Ritz, Rupp, Jager, etc. at early ages is not so easy as you make it sound. They all have varying levels of talent; work ethic is an unknown to most except them and their coaches. It is not equal. Motivation; ability of their early coaches (obviously Rupp had a talented coach), coachability, etc. If they were developed gradually or went all out early??? Often comparing apples - oranges just doesn't work. Too many variables!!!

I'm pretty sure that I am enjoying the successes of Jerry's athletes, along with plenty of others. It's for that reason that I wrote, "It's a wonderful thing to be in a position now to hold medalling as the standard of success for American running." But there's no reason enjoying success and "being so critical" have to be mutually exclusive of one another.

My criticism, in this case, is in fact a function of the great success that American runners have enjoyed--including Jerry's athletes. And it is indeed true that Jerry has coached (and continues to coach) athletes like Solinsky, Teg, and others to some incredible times. That's a fantastic thing, because times are important.

But the sport is more than times. It's also racing. And there comes a point when times become so impressive that they are the sign of strong racing potential. Again and again, Jerry has coached his athletes to that point--but (thus far) no farther.

I am fully rooting for Jager to change that story this year.

One other thing about how massive of a talent Jager is that I had forgotten until we had our weekly staff conference call.

Jager made the world championship team by running 13:22 after what would have been his true sophomore year. So at age 20 and 3 months, he was running 13:22. Rupp's PR at that age was 1337. Rupp dindn't break 13:30 until he was almost 23.

rojo wrote:

Rupp dindn't break 13:30 until he was almost 23.

And had already been doping for 9 years.

rojo wrote:

Rupp dindn't break 13:30 until he was almost 23.

And had already been doping for 9 years.

Let me get wrote:

Does Rupp actually have so little talent compared to these guys that he can use PEDs, get access to all the latest gadgets, remain injury-free, train with the best runner in the world, have coaching continuity and after that, still lose to undoped, "blue-collar" runners?

Not sure what races you've been watching, but Rupp has beaten all of those runners nearly every time they've raced since graduating Oregon spare a couple of rare losses:

-Solinsky during the 2010 season (Rupp was not in his prime).

-Hill at USAs this year.

-Jager, Derrick, Lomong, Teg? Have they ever beaten Rupp in any race over the past 4 or 5 years. That's not rhetorical, I genuinely don't know, but nothing comes to mind.

The Dingo wrote:

Let me get wrote:

Does Rupp actually have so little talent compared to these guys that he can use PEDs, get access to all the latest gadgets, remain injury-free, train with the best runner in the world, have coaching continuity and after that, still lose to undoped, "blue-collar" runners?

Not sure what races you've been watching, but Rupp has beaten all of those runners nearly every time they've raced since graduating Oregon spare a couple of rare losses:

-Solinsky during the 2010 season (Rupp was not in his prime).

-Hill at USAs this year.

-Jager, Derrick, Lomong, Teg? Have they ever beaten Rupp in any race over the past 4 or 5 years. That's not rhetorical, I genuinely don't know, but nothing comes to mind.

When Solinksy became the first non-African born runner to break 27, the race actually was set up for Rupp to do it. Be he couldn't (for whatever reason) and Solinsky did.

Most of Jerry's early guys are gone. Injured because of inappropriate and fool-hardy coaching. Galen has mostly stayed injury-free and healthy at the cost of scorn and hatred from the brojos and their fanbois (mask, rupp-certified, etc).

He who laughs last...

Leirbag wrote:

He who laughs last...

Gets a perma-ban; Rupp.

BonifaceMerande wrote:

When Solinksy became the first non-African born runner to break 27, the race actually was set up for Rupp to do it. Be he couldn't (for whatever reason) and Solinsky did.

It was set up for Rupp to go under the AR which he did. Solinsky's performance was unbelievable and Nike didn't use the footage they gathered and cut back monetary support of Schumacher group (maybe because they wanted to distance themselves in case of members getting busted for doping).

The Dingo wrote:

Not sure what races you've been watching, but Rupp has beaten all of those runners nearly every time they've raced since graduating Oregon spare a couple of rare losses:

-Solinsky during the 2010 season (Rupp was not in his prime).

-Hill at USAs this year.

-Jager, Derrick, Lomong, Teg? Have they ever beaten Rupp in any race over the past 4 or 5 years. That's not rhetorical, I genuinely don't know, but nothing comes to mind.

I think Lomong has beat Rupp in a 3k indoor. That's about it.