Once an Expert
Clean ≠ Moral 1/14/2013 9:17PM Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
Just because an athlete is clean does not mean that they are morally superior to an athlete who uses performance enhancing drugs.

Lance Armstrong using EPO, testosterone, et al does not make him history's greatest monster. It makes him someone who wanted to win, and knew that he had no realistic chances if he did not do those things. If you enter a contest where you know that everyone's cheating and you don't do so based on principle, then that just shows that you are feeble of mind.

"Prisons are built with stones of Law, brothels with bricks of Religion."- William Blake
Troll O'Meter
RE: Clean ≠ Moral 1/14/2013 9:20PM - in reply to Once an Expert Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
0.21/10

Small credit for taking a contrary position, but major deduction for jumping on the bandwagon.
Yeees
RE: Clean ≠ Moral 1/14/2013 9:21PM - in reply to Once an Expert Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
Yes, it does mean they are morally superior.
Once an Expert
RE: Clean ≠ Moral 1/14/2013 9:26PM - in reply to Troll O'Meter Reply | Return to Index | Report Post

Troll O'Meter wrote:

0.21/10

Small credit for taking a contrary position, but major deduction for jumping on the bandwagon.

Eh, this is the same position I've been taking for a while using various aliases.
cas
RE: Clean ≠ Moral 1/14/2013 9:59PM - in reply to Once an Expert Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
So are you on drugs right now too? The contest act lasted 2 weeks tops last spring. I was clear several times after that I wasn't trying to win anything, not a race, not a game, not anything. You created all that on your own. More importantly, you were the leader, not the follower. You can't say everyone was doing it because you manipulated everyone. I cannot think of 3 things you did right. Your cowardly-indirect approach at trying to get me could not have been more off or more damaging to everyone.

That post is a perfect example of why you are not even close to viewing yourself in an accurate light, which means you are not even close to apologizing or changing. Taking the drugs was not what make Lance a monster. That action makes him human or prone to weakness of pressure. What makes him a monster is the people he has hurt combined with his unwillingness to admit or apologize, the length of time at which it occurred, and any continued bashing he does daily.

The fact that he is being so strategic about how he will confess, if he even does so, is sickening because what he is doing is being careful to have the least damage occur to him in the future. A truly repentant person is willing to present all the information as accurately as possible because that person understands they deserve the punishment. His half-as* confession will not be with a contrite heart so it's not really a confession, but an action he feels he must take to get the outcome he wants. People will see through it.

At some point growing up you learned an incorrect lesson that has screwed up every area of your life. You learned that being direct, whether it be in conflict resolution or dating or work, will not get you where you want to be. So you plot, manipulate, avoid, lie, come up with crazy solutions like YouTube instead of actually talking to the girl. You don't do anything or take any action you need to do that will move you forward. You just sit on the fence like a wimp, hitting people with rocks because you aren't actively and directly creating the life you want. It is one of the most painful and destructive ways to manage a life I've ever seen.

And because you're an atheist you have no commandments or spiritual laws to guide you, making you even more lost and destructive. But actually, I don't think, deep down, you are really an atheist. I think claiming you're an atheist is a great way to do more avoiding. And reinforcing having no belief gives you an out from having to be held spiritually accountable.
Once an Expert
RE: Clean ≠ Moral 1/14/2013 11:49PM - in reply to cas Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
So all of his former teammates who only confessed because they would get lighter sanctions are just as low then.
cas
RE: Clean ≠ Moral 1/14/2013 11:53PM - in reply to Once an Expert Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
I'm not familiar with their behavior so much, but if they are only confessing to get lighter sanctions, then yes.
Justin91
RE: Clean ≠ Moral 1/14/2013 11:54PM - in reply to Once an Expert Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
I don't think the OP realizes just how much PEDs Hitler and Stalin took.
coach bigfoot
RE: Clean ≠ Moral 1/15/2013 12:03AM - in reply to Once an Expert Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
People choose to devote their lives to sport. These are games and races people enter that fuel their competitive spirit. For a whole country to hate an athlete because he cheated in a GAME is ridiculous. Everyone who has a problem with it has the option of finding a new profession or hobby that better suits their opinion.
cas
RE: Clean ≠ Moral 1/15/2013 12:03AM - in reply to Justin91 Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
You want to use drugs as the sole excuse? Okay, my brother does stuff sometimes. Never once has he treated me badly. Goes for a lot of people.


Chris Brown: Not my fault. I took a pill that had a specific side effect that makes you hit your girlfriend.

Rihanna: See everyone! He's not ALL bad.
rojo
co-founder
RE: Clean ≠ Moral 1/15/2013 12:18AM - in reply to coach bigfoot Reply | Return to Index | Report Post

coach bigfoot wrote:
For a whole country to hate an athlete because he cheated in a GAME is ridiculous. Everyone who has a problem with it has the option of finding a new profession or hobby that better suits their opinion.


I think you Lance defenders don't get it. Read the guest Science of sport column.

http://www.sportsscientists.com/2013/01/guest-post-last-lance.html

1) The country isn't upset simply because he cheated at sports.

"The beefs many have with Lance are related to his dishonesty rather than his drug-taking, and far more about his bullying than his breaking of the rules."

2) And his using of cancer is disgusting.

If he hadn't dared people to come after him and acted holier than though, it wouldn't be a big deal.

Same thing with Tiger Woods. Woods acted like a good guy. No one hates tons of NBA players for lots of gfs, etc.
Once an Expert
RE: Clean ≠ Moral 1/15/2013 8:52AM - in reply to rojo Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
And he could have been even faster if he had taken HGH too like Floyd Landis, but he didn't.
The Super
RE: Clean ≠ Moral 1/15/2013 9:02AM - in reply to Once an Expert Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
Assuming all other things are equal (the clean athlete isn't a wife beater or something like that), then yes, the clean athlete is morally superior. Moral superiority sometimes means that you can't win.


Once an Expert wrote:

Just because an athlete is clean does not mean that they are morally superior to an athlete who uses performance enhancing drugs.

Lance Armstrong using EPO, testosterone, et al does not make him history's greatest monster. It makes him someone who wanted to win, and knew that he had no realistic chances if he did not do those things. If you enter a contest where you know that everyone's cheating and you don't do so based on principle, then that just shows that you are feeble of mind.

"Prisons are built with stones of Law, brothels with bricks of Religion."- William Blake
PhoenixRunner
RE: Clean ≠ Moral 1/15/2013 9:29AM - in reply to rojo Reply | Return to Index | Report Post

rojo wrote:


coach bigfoot wrote:
For a whole country to hate an athlete because he cheated in a GAME is ridiculous. Everyone who has a problem with it has the option of finding a new profession or hobby that better suits their opinion.


I think you Lance defenders don't get it. Read the guest Science of sport column.

http://www.sportsscientists.com/2013/01/guest-post-last-lance.html

1) The country isn't upset simply because he cheated at sports.

"The beefs many have with Lance are related to his dishonesty rather than his drug-taking, and far more about his bullying than his breaking of the rules."

2) And his using of cancer is disgusting.

If he hadn't dared people to come after him and acted holier than though, it wouldn't be a big deal.

Same thing with Tiger Woods. Woods acted like a good guy. No one hates tons of NBA players for lots of gfs, etc.


Yes yes yes! He is scum because he lied about it, and did not think somebody would figure it out. He does not realize people are more tolerant and understanding than they act. He didnt give people a chance to giggle at his expense. They would have forgiven, and forgotton if he just was not so manipulating.
brownsmith89
RE: Clean ≠ Moral 1/15/2013 10:36AM - in reply to cas Reply | Return to Index | Report Post

cas wrote: At some point growing up you learned an incorrect lesson that has screwed up every area of your life. You learned that being direct, whether it be in conflict resolution or dating or work, will not get you where you want to be. So you plot, manipulate, avoid, lie, come up with crazy solutions like YouTube instead of actually talking to the girl. You don't do anything or take any action you need to do that will move you forward. You just sit on the fence like a wimp, hitting people with rocks because you aren't actively and directly creating the life you want. It is one of the most painful and destructive ways to manage a life I've ever seen.
amazing post, cas!

lance is bitter and stubborn. what happened to good sportsmanship? what happened to polite manners? all that thrown out for money, fame, and wins.
Charlie
RE: Clean ≠ Moral 1/15/2013 10:51AM - in reply to Once an Expert Reply | Return to Index | Report Post

Once an Expert wrote:

Just because an athlete is clean does not mean that they are morally superior to an athlete who uses performance enhancing drugs.

Lance Armstrong using EPO, testosterone, et al does not make him history's greatest monster. It makes him someone who wanted to win, and knew that he had no realistic chances if he did not do those things. If you enter a contest where you know that everyone's cheating and you don't do so based on principle, then that just shows that you are feeble of mind.

"Prisons are built with stones of Law, brothels with bricks of Religion."- William Blake


Lance is a great player .

The prestigious hypocrites sweating.

Lance rolled over.

Now The bell tolls for thee.
Once an Expert
RE: Clean ≠ Moral 1/15/2013 10:11PM - in reply to Charlie Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
How many other champion athletes have come out and admitted to "cheating" when their feet weren't held to the fire? I can think of exactly none.