Daniels Tempo run question

Peter, I've got a question. I do less mileage than you but still take basically the same approach: easy easy days and hard hard days. Even though the JDRF offers specific guidelines for running easy runs, do you ever really even get close to them? I know that if I run my hard days at the right intensity, I won't even have the energy to push the pace down to the "speed limits" JD suggets. Do you find that to be true for yourself?

Anyone else with experience in this?

Also, on another point, when doing the fartleks, do you assume that, say a 6 mile workout limit means 6 miles of I-paced running and easy paced running combined (for a total of 6 miles) or a 6 mile limit means 6 miles of fast sections without adding in the jogs (for a total of 8-9 miles)? I find they are two very different workouts. For example, a 50 mile a week runner doing these fartleks would do 8% (4 miles). So, is that 4 miles total or 4 miles of pick-ups + jogging?

I know that I'm not Peter or Tinman, but let me see if I can help clear this up a bit.

Easy runs: 5K + 1:30 to 2:00

Aerobic Threshold: 5K + 1:00

Lactate Threshold: 5K + :30

Marathon pace can ideally be (if trained properly) 45 sec. per mile slower than 5K pace, but usually closer to a minute slower.

This is Tinman's info on quicker "tempo" runs:

5K pace/ .93 = short tempo (20-25 min)

5K pace/ .90 = medium tempo (40-60 min)

5K pace/ .87 = long tempo (60-80 min)

5K pace/ .75 = easy run pace (aerobic running)

I hope that you didn't mind me typing that, Tinman...hope this helps.

I know the numbers, but that's the thing, when I run by numbers, I can only hit the fast work right or the slow work right, but not both. So, I've tried to stick with the quality work and run slow easy days. I was just encouraged that a fast runner like Peter said I run lots of 7:00 pace (slow relative to his race paces) and way off of the Daniels E-pace suggestions.

I'm not going to try to speak for JTD, but my reading of DRF is that when it says something like 5% of weekly miles at I pace, that doesn't include recoveries (i.e., 5% "at speed"). Also, I understand that that is per workout, not per week (although you typically do only one of a certain kind of speed workout per week). I've heard a lot of people on letsrun comment that E pace tends to be too quick. I think it may be more of a "top end" limit than a minimum requirement, that is, no need to go faster. I tend to be around E pace on recovery runs, maybe 10-15 seconds/mile slower. Depends on how I feel, the weather, etc.

Jack's E (easy) Pace is the fastest pace one needs to run on their distance days that are non-specific. It represents about 70% of max VO2. If you want to run at 65% of max VO2, just add 30 seconds to that. For 60% add about a minute to Jack's time. So, the range of Easy running, if you use Jack's chart would be the time listed for E plus 30-60 seconds. Example: a 5k runnner hits 15:29 or roughly 5:00 per mile. His E pace listed is 6:30 per mile. His range therefore, by my suggestion, for E days is 6:30 to 7:30. I tend to advise people to use Jack's chart but add 30 seconds to the E day if you need to not push to hard. So, 7:00 per mile would be just right, I think.

I have my own complicated formulas to derive more exact intensitites, but for general purposes, I will go back to simpicity. Add 2:00 per mile to your 5k pace for Easy runs, 1:00 per mile for aerobic threshold runs, and 30 seconds per mile for LT tempo runs. Close enough to do the job but not too complicated! Tinman

Couldn't have said it better myself. Jack's easy paces (and all other paces) are speed limits. You don't have to run that fast, all he's saying is don't go any faster or you're venturing into the land of quality junk.

It is true that his easy pace suggestions are probably the toughest of any pace. Tinman can shed some more light on this, but I don't think it matters if I do my mileage at 6min/mile or 7min/mile. My understanding of the physiology is that as long as you're within the 70% of VO2max it doesn't matter what pace you run. Obviously, running 9 minute miles is not what I'm suggesting, but running 7:00 or 6:00 does a body the same aerobic good. The big HOWEVER is, you will feel much better, recover from your workouts faster, exposed yourself to less injury risk, AND be able to run more total miles at the slower (7:00) pace. If you can get all that safety and get in more quantity without giving up any benefits, the choice is clear. My 6minute - 7 minute example is just that, an example. Everyone needs to find their own sweet spot. This isn't far off from the wejo/JK easy day policy and HADD's heartrate oriented approach.

The other question about the volume in workouts was answered correctly earlier. This spring Jack told me to do 4-5 miles of I work every week that I didn't race. That meant 8x1000 or 4x mile, or any combo, but the total mileage at pace is 4-5 miles.

Thanks to Tinman and Peter for analyzing the situation correctly. The most difficult thing to do in training runners is to try to simplify things so they apply to a wide range of abilities and fitness levels, but that's what I have tried to do. The alternative is to say here is what you do if you can race between this time and this time and for those who are a little slower do this, and for those another notch slower do this,etc. So I have gone to using percentages and fractions of VDOT. I do mean 5% of quality running when I say 5% is enough in a rep session and that applies to each session (if more than 1 sessioin per week). In the new edition of the book I provide a range for easy runs and it is about 30 sec per mile; and now I offer adjusted paces for "tempo" runs that are longer than the typical 20 minutes. The idea is to give something to as many run abilities as possible and not alienate anyone. I sometimes get others lost in things that I have done so often that they seem second nature, but are new to some runners. No problem asking questions, and I am sure I can't answer them all, but I keep trying