Daniels Tempo run question

I'm not sure of what you're asking here (or how you calculated this), but I assume it's a question of doing a tempo run longer than JD's usual, and at a somewhat slower pace. As I understand it, the new edition of Running Formula will include some info on this topic, although I don't know the numbers. It may well be that a 10 mile run at MP is equivalent to a 4 miler at T for some people (using JD's terminology). All I can say is that in my own experience, for myself, that wouldn't seem unreasonable. Sometimes I like to do a long, slower-than-T tempo run with a fairly long warm-up or cool-down (maybe 12 miles total) if I can't get in both a long run and a tempo workout in a given week. Maybe jtupper or tinman can offer some insight on the time increase vs. pace slow-up.

You might want to check out Tinman's discussion of critical value pace.

I think the T pace stuff is based off of mile repeats, not continuous runs. Tinman has said your aerobic threshold (MP) is about a minute per mile slower than 5k pace.

Jim...Bill Dellinger suggests 10-12 mile runs at half-marathon to marathon race pace during his pre-competition phase. I have used them before and enjoy them; I also believe they help me develop fitness a little differently/better than T-pace runs. Plus, it's just an option for variety.

I used a little convoluted figuring but it worked out. Anyway, I'll use an example. Let's say a guy running 20:00 for 4 miles. His tempo run pace (for the same 4 miles) should be 5:20's, which is 21:20. So, I then played around with marathon pace (2:26:45) to figure out pace...5:35.8.

Next, I kept putting in numbers to see what distance at this pace would be equivalent to the 4-mile tempo run. In this case, 10 miles would be 56:56...5:41 pace. So, 10 miles would be slightly slower than marathon pace. 9 miles at equivalent VDot would be 50:54 (5:39 pace)...and 8 miles would be 44:56 (5:37 pace). So, it seems that maybe 12k would be the equivalent effort. So, in this case, 7.5 miles at MP pace would equal a 4-mile tempo run.

I could keep putting up numbers, but most people aren't really interested in the math. The formula would be simple, but I don't have anything here to develop the formula based on data points.

Will wrote:

Bill Dellinger suggests 10-12 mile runs at half-marathon to marathon race pace during his pre-competition phase. I have used them before and enjoy them; I also believe they help me develop fitness a little differently/better than T-pace runs. Plus, it's just an option for variety.

Will, sounds to me like regardless of what the calculator says, you have four good reasons (above) to do that workout. If the calculator corroborates your own experience, great. If not, suspect the calculator or its misuse ;-)

For the record, I enjoy creating things like VDOTer, and although I use them, I would never be slavish to them. Rather, I use them as guideposts. I think they are particularly helpful to folks who lack experience and/or an experienced individual to guide them. (That's pretty much my opinion on most "gadgets", such as HRMs. I use an HRM on ocassion as a sanity check against other measures, but I'd never use it as the end-all.) I'm glad you found the program useful.

Will wrote:

Jim...Bill Dellinger suggests 10-12 mile runs at half-marathon to marathon race pace during his pre-competition phase. I have used them before and enjoy them; I also believe they help me develop fitness a little differently/better than T-pace runs. Plus, it's just an option for variety.

10-12 mile runs at half marathon pace is either to far or too fast.

how the hell would we know our marathon/ halfmarathon of we've never ran one??....unless by the charts

As long as you run had relaxed for 15-90 min your going to get all of the LT training you need. Do worry about any of that pace crap. Noone on any givin day can tell you how many mm/L of laticit acid your produceing at a given pace. Just go out start real easy like 8 min pace then over then next 15-30 min slowly speed things up untill you feel like your running hard but relaxed. Keep at this level of effort for 15-60 more min depending on the rec your gearing up to run. The only way you will know if you have gone over is if you get winded. That happens cool down and call it a day.

Bill Dellinger's collegiate runners regularly put in 8-12 mile runs at about 5:20 pace for guys who are 13:40-14:00 5k runners, or about 50-60 seconds per mile over 5k pace. Tinman

Jim,

I'm all about gadgets. That's one thing I like about the calculator. Anyhow, it's been helpful. Thanks.

Sol,

I find progression runs unproductive for me. I tend to go too hard. For me a specific pace works a lot better than feel. Plus, I use heart rate monitors to help reign me back. More of than not, I go too fast on those types of runs.

Tinman,

Yeah, he's got them riddled throughout his training. Seems a nice variation on Lydiard's 50-minute 10-milers. I've always found they are a great confidence/fitness booster for me. I was just curious about shorter, slightly more intense workouts being the same "bang for the buck". 4 miles is a lot easier on the psyche than 10 or 12.

"It may well be that a 10 mile run at MP is equivalent to a 4 miler at T for some people"

10 miles at marathon pace is much harder than 4 miles at half marathon pace. JD may say they are "equivalent" but that's because he's never been out on the road doing either. I'd much rather go out and run hard for 21:00-22:00 minutes than for 55-60 minutes.

Alan

runningart2004 wrote:

he's never been out on the road doing either.

Alan

HaHaHaHaHa daggone!! It's get'n hostile up in here!!

I won't reveal priveleged info, but Jack has suffered a lot in his competitive day as a world class pentathlete. So, be cautious about implying that Jack doesn't know what it feels like to run shorter, hard tempo run vs. long moderate tempo runs. Suffering is something Jack knows from personal experience, not by word of mouth. Tinman

I was just going off of what he said that after about 20 minutes he saw little benefit in terms of metabolic/system development.

As far as whether Jack knows from personal experience, any world class athlete deserves more respect than "he's never been on the road", particularly a medal winning athlete. You think he just wrote his way to the medal?

5k pace + 50-60 secs is not half marathon to marathon pace... in a well-trained distance runner it's 15-20 secs or more slower than marathon pace.

It's also an excellent training pace...

bump

passerby wrote:

5k pace + 50-60 secs is not half marathon to marathon pace... in a well-trained distance runner it's 15-20 secs or more slower than marathon pace.

On the superelite end of the specrtrum, a 12:30 5k runner (4:01 pace) would hit 2:00:05 for the full 26.2 (4:35 pace) and 57:18 for the half marathon (4:22 pace). On a more human plane, a 15:00 5k runner (4:49 pace) would hit 1:08:43 for the half (5:12 pace) and the full 26.2 in 2:23:55 (5:29 pace). So, either way, ubermensch or merely man, the differences range from 21-34 seconds per mile slower for the megarunners to 23-40 seconds slower per mile for the more ordinary runners.

So, 50-60 seconds per mile would be 25-30 seconds per mile slower for the next super-5k runners while it would still be 20-25 seconds off for the 15:00 guy.

I never said it was half-marathon or marathon pace. I said it was the aerobic threshold or in science terms OBLA, the initial rise in blood plama lactate. Mader, Madsen, et al determined a long time ago that such a velocity was very effective at improving aerobic performance; albeit from an efficiency standpoint. Peter Jansen, M.D., in his fine book about training defines it and identifies example athletes who used it to improve there performances, particularly in the marathon. Many others have used a version of it. You do not have to run as fast as marathon pace to have the benefits. The actual velocity which provides nearly identical improvements is about 10-20 seconds slower per mile than marathon pace. Tinman

passerby wrote:

5k pace + 50-60 secs is not half marathon to marathon pace... in a well-trained distance runner it's 15-20 secs or more slower than marathon pace.