Making a lot of excuses for Trump. The point is he did not have the country ready for a pandemic in February. He left everything to the States and didn’t get anything in preparation to address crisis areas. That did cost lives, and deepen the crisis in NYC. Sure he couldn’t have known all the mitigation that was necessary but he could’ve stocked up so hospitals were ready and locked things down and with more authority as opposed to leaving everything to the states’ discretion.
Playing it Safe wrote:
everyone over dramatic wrote:
It was not just the hospitals. Every single infectious disease expert and media article has been over dramatic about the deadliness of the virus, the spread rate, and the hospitalizations required. First it was going to be a million deaths, then 100-200,000...now I’m not even sure we’ll break 35,000. So basically...the flu.
You know what they haven’t overdramatized? The economic fallout. I would say 6/10 people I know have either had their hours cut, been laid off, closed their business, gotten a “temporary” pay cut, furloughed, or some other bad outcome from this shutdown. And I live in a white collar suburb where median household income is probably around 125,000.
The economy is not a light switch that can flip back on and suddenly everyone will have a job to go back to. Most companies who laid people off are going to realize, hey, we operate just fine with a 10% reduction in workforce, and we have to make up for lost revenue in March and April, so let’s not rehire any of those positions right now.
I work in emergency management at a hospital in NY...
So first of all, there was/is a crisis of hospital beds and staff. The greater NYC area had roughly 22,000 hospital beds (before the Comfort and Javitz and all that). As many as 19,000 of those were used for COVID related admissions. I believe right now we're closer to 18,500 and hopefully that continues to fall. That left about 3,000 beds for EVERY THING ELSE. 3,000 beds for NYC for everything else is nothing. Folks are absolutely packed into hospitals right now. Additionally, most of those beds are not in ICUs. There were many folks treated on regular medical/surgical units that should have been in ICUs, but ICU space wasn't available (yes, ICU beds were added to handle the surge, but it is far from ideal). Two months ago, there were about 1,600 ICU beds in NYC. Right now there are over 3,500 people in ICU beds. It was a crisis. I can't even describe how incredibly taxing that is.
As far as staff, it takes special training to work in an ICU and with medically fragile patients. If you look at the raw numbers of licensed healthcare providers, it might look ok, but you don't want a gynecologist trying to help you keep breathing, right? Ideally in an ICU you'd have one nurse dedicated to one patient. People are in ICUs because they can crash at any time. If nurses were continuously running 12 hour shifts back to back, that's a minimum of 7,000 critical care nurses. Obviously no one can work 12 hours straights so you need folks to cover bathroom and meal breaks, so let's say that's 8,000 critical care nurses working 12 hour shifts back to back to back to back. That's in addition to respiratory therapists, physicians, aides, and everyone else involved. They're also doing this without all of the required PPE.
As far as the numbers of cases and fatalities, so far we're lucky. We're lucky that the shutdowns happened and we're lucky that people complied. Imagine how much worse it would be. That said, we're only about half way through is, and we'll blow 35,000 deaths out of the water. Just look at the numbers. We're storing bodies in food trucks and burying them in shallow graves. NYC isn't the only city doing that either.
Please tell me how we over dramatized the situation and please tell me how it wouldn't have been worse without the shutdown.
THanks for that.
Also, proprietors of this website...why do you allow morons like the OP to post this nonsense? So many threads are just conservatard spam about Coronavirus. And I, btw, I am a lifelong Republican. I am not however a dumbazz kool aid drinking Trump fluffer.
kdkdkdkdk wrote:
Playing it Safe wrote:
I work in emergency management at a hospital in NY...
So first of all, there was/is a crisis of hospital beds and staff. The greater NYC area had roughly 22,000 hospital beds (before the Comfort and Javitz and all that). As many as 19,000 of those were used for COVID related admissions. I believe right now we're closer to 18,500 and hopefully that continues to fall. That left about 3,000 beds for EVERY THING ELSE. 3,000 beds for NYC for everything else is nothing. Folks are absolutely packed into hospitals right now. Additionally, most of those beds are not in ICUs. There were many folks treated on regular medical/surgical units that should have been in ICUs, but ICU space wasn't available (yes, ICU beds were added to handle the surge, but it is far from ideal). Two months ago, there were about 1,600 ICU beds in NYC. Right now there are over 3,500 people in ICU beds. It was a crisis. I can't even describe how incredibly taxing that is.
As far as staff, it takes special training to work in an ICU and with medically fragile patients. If you look at the raw numbers of licensed healthcare providers, it might look ok, but you don't want a gynecologist trying to help you keep breathing, right? Ideally in an ICU you'd have one nurse dedicated to one patient. People are in ICUs because they can crash at any time. If nurses were continuously running 12 hour shifts back to back, that's a minimum of 7,000 critical care nurses. Obviously no one can work 12 hours straights so you need folks to cover bathroom and meal breaks, so let's say that's 8,000 critical care nurses working 12 hour shifts back to back to back to back. That's in addition to respiratory therapists, physicians, aides, and everyone else involved. They're also doing this without all of the required PPE.
As far as the numbers of cases and fatalities, so far we're lucky. We're lucky that the shutdowns happened and we're lucky that people complied. Imagine how much worse it would be. That said, we're only about half way through is, and we'll blow 35,000 deaths out of the water. Just look at the numbers. We're storing bodies in food trucks and burying them in shallow graves. NYC isn't the only city doing that either.
Please tell me how we over dramatized the situation and please tell me how it wouldn't have been worse without the shutdown.
THanks for that.
Also, proprietors of this website...why do you allow morons like the OP to post this nonsense? So many threads are just conservatard spam about Coronavirus. And I, btw, I am a lifelong Republican. I am not however a dumbazz kool aid drinking Trump fluffer.
+1, it’s beyond ridiculous.
Thanks for your efforts all who work in our hospitals.
NY’s poor patient safety record is known, but is on the front pages now. Don’t ask the mods to yell at me. Let’s talk. Happy to discuss this further.
THOUGHTSLEADER wrote:
Making a lot of excuses for Trump. The point is he did not have the country ready for a pandemic in February. He left everything to the States and didn’t get anything in preparation to address crisis areas. That did cost lives, and deepen the crisis in NYC. Sure he couldn’t have known all the mitigation that was necessary but he could’ve stocked up so hospitals were ready and locked things down and with more authority as opposed to leaving everything to the states’ discretion.
I have not made any excuses. But I have not seen where he "wasted time" unless you care counting time during which someone advised him to do something and he did not. As far as I can tell the country was as prepared for this as it would have been any year. Maybe that means not very. Maybe that means Obama was lucky it did not happen when he was in office and Trump has been unlucky that it happened during his time. The major shortcomings have been in testing, and in seeing the virus was spreading apparently in defiance of what the W.H.O said could happen. The FDA seemed to not get the test right. I don't see how that is on Trump, other than he is in charge so perhaps the buck stops there.
FastTuohy wrote:
But I have not seen where he "wasted time" unless you care counting time during which someone advised him to do something and he did not.
I meant to say "But I have not seen where he "wasted time" unless you are counting time during which noone advised him to do something and he did not"
THOUGHTSLEADER wrote:
To echo this, this is anything but normal and this with measures. Deaths are way higher than normal:
Meanwhile, surveillance data from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention details deaths from coronavirus, pneumonia, and influenza paint an alarming picture. Across the five boroughs, 14,535 New Yorkers died between February 1st and April 4th, 133 percent more than expected based on averages of the number of deaths that occurred during the same period over the last three years. (As of Monday, the city’s statistics say that 6,182 New York City residents died of the virus who had been tested for it.)
For New York State, the number of actual deaths was 103 percent higher than expected. New Jersey also saw twice as many more deaths than expected at 15,644.
NYC just coded a bunch of deaths they had no data on as COVID. But ignoring that you said 14,535 people died and that was 133% too high. So I think that you are saying there should have been 6,238 deaths but there were 133% more (8,409) for a total of 14,535. Well don't the 6,182 official deaths account for most of these cases? That is general ballpark correct.
Ahead of the Curve wrote:
US will probably have their highest number of deaths so far today, and I'm not confident we are close to our peak despite the IMHE models showing 'peak' 4 days ago.
Worldometers should a peak 4 days ago too so where is your data from?
real numbers wrote:
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/04/10/upshot/coronavirus-deaths-new-york-city.html
And if a bunch of people are dying because they are having heart attacks or strokes not calling 911 is that the Coronavirus' fault? I don't think so. Sure some could be COVID deaths but some could be because of the panic we are creating, more so outside of NY where this is by and large much much milder.
not a stat man wrote:
[quote]real numbers wrote:
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/04/10/upshot/coronavirus-deaths-new-york-city.html
If true it makes a strong case for the legitimacy of Covid's danger.
But the NY Times? And Josh and Margot Katz?
I do not trust the source to provide legit data
not a stat man wrote:
NYC just coded a bunch of deaths they had no data on as COVID. But ignoring that you said 14,535 people died and that was 133% too high. So I think that you are saying there should have been 6,238 deaths but there were 133% more (8,409) for a total of 14,535. Well don't the 6,182 official deaths account for most of these cases? That is general ballpark correct.
Yes which illustrates how this is anything but the normal flu. People are being more careful than other and there is a lot more death despite proactive measures and less reckless behavior.
As for the guy saying he was being advised not to do things. That’s ok for mitigation but that falls apart when it comes to testing and increasing the government’s readiness for a pandemic (ventilators, PPEs, testing). He sat on his incomplete China step and the low numbers instead of acting. Maybe it would’ve helped had he not gutted the group in charge of preparedness for this sort of thing. Instead he boasted about it going away like a miracle. A good president would’ve started a task force and gotten rolling on building testing out and the federal stockpile of everything hospitals would need instead of golfing, holding rallies, and trying to be a cheerleader for his own reelection bid.
US is going well when you compare us to Europe. So if you compare Trump to the European leaders instead of a perfect standard we look ok.
Giles Corey wrote:
not a stat man wrote:
[quote]real numbers wrote:
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/04/10/upshot/coronavirus-deaths-new-york-city.htmlIf true it makes a strong case for the legitimacy of Covid's danger.
But the NY Times? And Josh and Margot Katz?
I do not trust the source to provide legit data
That is because you are an imbecilic Trump-zombie who cannot think rationally.
it is a new high today - 2,349 at last count. Looking at the number of serious cases it could average this for another week at least.
not a stat man wrote:
US is going well when you compare us to Europe. So if you compare Trump to the European leaders instead of a perfect standard we look ok.
Not so sure about that. When you consider the US is behind many European countries in terms of onset and peak.
https://www.statista.com/statistics/1104709/coronavirus-deaths-worldwide-per-million-inhabitants/THOUGHTSLEADER wrote:
Making a lot of excuses for Trump. The point is he did not have the country ready for a pandemic in February. He left everything to the States and didn’t get anything in preparation to address crisis areas. That did cost lives, and deepen the crisis in NYC. Sure he couldn’t have known all the mitigation that was necessary but he could’ve stocked up so hospitals were ready and locked things down and with more authority as opposed to leaving everything to the states’ discretion.
Name one country that was prepared for a pandemic.
Waiting...
Waiting...
Thought so
Giles Corey wrote:
not a stat man wrote:
[quote]real numbers wrote:
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/04/10/upshot/coronavirus-deaths-new-york-city.htmlIf true it makes a strong case for the legitimacy of Covid's danger.
But the NY Times? And Josh and Margot Katz?
I do not trust the source to provide legit data
“ Methodology
Our calculations rely on four slightly different measurements of deaths in New York City over the past two decades.”
I don’t understand. Isn’t dead just simply dead? 4 different measurements?
kdkdkdkdk wrote:
Also, proprietors of this website...why do you allow morons like the OP to post this nonsense? So many threads are just conservatard spam about Coronavirus. And I, btw, I am a lifelong Republican. I am not however a dumbazz kool aid drinking Trump fluffer.
Perhaps it's because the brosjo allow morons like the OP to post this nonsense that we get substantive, interesting replies. The reply from 'another fact' provided a view of some of the decision making that only someone inside the the medical-industrial complex would have.
Where I live, the hospitals have been underwhelmed by COVID-19 cases. Yet, the university hospital is setting up a temporary facility. Given their track record of using commitment proceedings to dump off patients who can't pay, I have to think that this temp facility is intended at least in part for patients without assets.
KudzuRunner wrote:
The truth is, flattening the curve worked. Mitigation worked. It killed the economy, but it worked.
The fact is that if no one had done anything differently than before, many less people would have died.
The only thing the stupid mitigation did was to cause more deaths, and to give more of our money to Wall Street.
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