Am I the only one who thinks it's NOT THE SHOES!!!!!!

greymatter wrote:

Sorry Nike, other Non-Nike elites, magic seekers...

I believe that Kipchoge would be running just as fast in a well fitting pair of Pegasus shoes. Is it a coincidence that most/all of the records being set are by the WORLD'S BEST RUNNER's or that they happen to be NIKE athletes wearing Vaporflys??

If you've seen the effect they've had on local running you wouldn't say that.

Unless you're just another one of those defenders that wears them yourself but won't accept your improvement has occurred because of the shoes.

trollism wrote:

greymatter wrote:

Sorry Nike, other Non-Nike elites, magic seekers...

I believe that Kipchoge would be running just as fast in a well fitting pair of Pegasus shoes. Is it a coincidence that most/all of the records being set are by the WORLD'S BEST RUNNER's or that they happen to be NIKE athletes wearing Vaporflys??

If you've seen the effect they've had on local running you wouldn't say that.

Unless you're just another one of those defenders that wears them yourself but won't accept your improvement has occurred because of the shoes.

I havent seen any change really. The people still run the same times in my area and 3 people I know who run with the shoes also did not get faster.

But people who do run faster in them report it as an incredible evolution in shoe design. So who is right, the believers or the doubters?

Never worn the shoes, but I agree with OP to an extent. I really don’t think these shoes are making a difference in local 5ks or 10ks, because that’s not what they’re designed for.

greymatter wrote:

I believe that Kipchoge would be running just as fast in a well fitting pair of Pegasus shoes. Is it a coincidence that most/all of the records being set are by the WORLD'S BEST RUNNER's or that they happen to be NIKE athletes wearing Vaporflys??

I'd suggest that you are proving the old adage: "Ignorance is bliss (and mostly ignorant)"

A bunch of ppl on the rival running club in my community trained really hard and invested in better footwear and now they're beating me at every race >:( >:( >:( >:(

Nike bad >:( >:(

If it's not the shoes, then why wear them? If it's not the shoes, then why would Nike make them?

I'm with you, brother.

I think they probably are the best shoes out there, but just incrementally better than the next best.

Its crazy how well this worked out for Nike, "These shoes are so good we might have to ban them.". And then they didn't get banned. Nike couldn't have gotten better press if they paid for it.

Because people will buy them? Everyone seems to think it’s the shoes which is great marketing for Nike. Doesn’t matter if they actually help, and they won’t help most people because they aren’t made for 5ks & 10ks like many non-elites are using them for

trollism wrote:

If you've seen the effect they've had on local running you wouldn't say that.

This is laughable. Even the most optimistic estimates are that the Vaproflys speed you up by a handful of seconds per mile. That's noticeable at the highest levels of the sport, where all the athletes are only a few seconds apart and they're bumping up against the physiological limits of the human species. At the local level, it's just static. None of these runners are anywhere near their potential, so even the smallest tweaks to training and diet would dwarf the effect of the Vaporfly. Run a few more miles, lose a few pounds, and you'll have a bigger bump in performance than the Vaporfly could give you.

If the shoes gave a 2% performance boost (4% was the alleged efficiency boost) across all distances, then improvement for a 25 minute club 5k runner would be 30 seconds.

But then again the improvement noted in the study where that 4% number came from was comparing it to an Adidas racing flat which is presumably better than a daily trainer. Is the guy next to you on the start line of the local 5k gaining an advantage if he's wearing a racing flat and you're in a trainer?

They are good shoes wrote:

I'm with you, brother.

I think they probably are the best shoes out there, but just incrementally better than the next best.

Its crazy how well this worked out for Nike, "These shoes are so good we might have to ban them.". And then they didn't get banned. Nike couldn't have gotten better press if they paid for it.

They did pay for it. It didn't take much though... the world of athletics is cheaply bought. Nike laughing all the way to the bank.

Posted this on another thread, but it's worth a mention here too. The introduction of the shoes has made the average finishing times of the entire field faster, not just the elites. The benchmarks often considered solid times are much easier now. This is a list of sub-2:30 but it's the same trend with sub-3:00.

"Here's an overview of sub 2:30 performances at several major US marathons over the past 5 years with * marking first year of widely available vaporflys at the race. As you can see they were just becoming widespread in late 2018, but in all 2019 they were the shoe of choice:

CIM sub 2:30 by year:

2019 180

2018* 165

2017 99

2016 38

2015 36

Grandmas sub 2:30 by year:

2019* 92

2018 44

2017 33

2016 24

2015 42

Chicago sub 2:30 by year:

2019 140

2018* 91

2017 64

2016 56

2015 79

Boston sub 2:30 by year:

2019* 104

2018 22

2017 57

2016 32

2015 84

New York sub 2:30 by year

2019 69

2018* 62

2017 38

2016 42

2015 34

In 2019, in these five marathons 585 runners cracked 2:30. In 2015, another trials qualifying year, just 247 met that mark in these same races. In 2016, only 192. "

Unless you can show that everyone was wearing the VFs this doesn’t mean anything. Correlation isn’t causation.

Maybe it’s the fact that Kipchoge has had 2 sub 2 hour attempts that got a lot of attention, so now more people are running and have more motivation to push their limits.

Times getting faster doesn’t mean it’s the shoes. It’s so hard to pick one variable and say it’s the reason.

In 2015 the marathon had very little hype and the shoes available were still terrible at best. Since 2015 as we headed to the Olympic trials... the hype has grown. This is the first Olympic trials where literally everyone is on Instagram and Strava.

The entire group of users and people attempting has increased.

In 2015 at NYC and Boston very few people were wearing any form of racing flats. Now literally 100% of sub 3 hour runners are wearing a well

Cushioned light shoe.

notroll wrote:

Unless you can show that everyone was wearing the VFs this doesn’t mean anything.

Ever seen a pic of the sub-elite packs at there races? Nothing but green and pink

notroll wrote:

Maybe it’s the fact that Kipchoge has had 2 sub 2 hour attempts that got a lot of attention, so now more people are running and have more motivation to push their limits.

Times getting faster doesn’t mean it’s the shoes. It’s so hard to pick one variable and say it’s the reason.

More people are running ? I thought total marathon finishers were on a decline. Motivated because of the sub-2:00 stunt? That's a stretch? The shoes are a variable. What are some other variables to consider that could have led to such a dramatic increase in faster finish times in the US and around the world? I've never worn the shoes, so save me $250 and convince me they won't make me faster.

Seems like you’re already to a point that it would be worthless to try convincing you. Maybe they’ll help maybe they won’t. Maybe you’ll be able to train harder and be more fit because of them. But overall they won’t take you from 2:35 to a 2:30 at the same fitness level, it’s absurd to think it would

800 dude wrote:

trollism wrote:

If you've seen the effect they've had on local running you wouldn't say that.

This is laughable. Even the most optimistic estimates are that the Vaproflys speed you up by a handful of seconds per mile. That's noticeable at the highest levels of the sport, where all the athletes are only a few seconds apart and they're bumping up against the physiological limits of the human species. At the local level, it's just static. None of these runners are anywhere near their potential, so even the smallest tweaks to training and diet would dwarf the effect of the Vaporfly. Run a few more miles, lose a few pounds, and you'll have a bigger bump in performance than the Vaporfly could give you.

You wear them, don't you?