For the people who actually read the USADA panel reports

Jack Frost wrote:

Does it bother anyone else that the entire doping violation hinges upon Magness, who was employed by Nike in a coaching capacity, meeting the USADA definition of an athlete? Speaking only with respect to the actual scope of the investigation as detailed in the reports the entirety of their conclusion is total bullsh-t. It is akin to charging and convicting someone with a conspiracy in which there is no underlying crime or intent to commit a crime. L-carnitine does nothing. You can purchase it by the pound on Amazon.com. Alberto needs to fire his legal team and pick up someone else with experience against ridiculous panels that have dubious standards of proof and operate with wanton subjectivity in their interpretation of WADA code and by-laws.

I'm all for outing and punishing people who cheat but this has simply been bungled.

I agree 100%.. I think media outlets should read the entire report & provide actual content to readers rather than clips of text that are extraordinarily misleading. Anyone who takes the time to read the USADA documents should feel that this has been completely blown out of proportion. LRC ‘s promotion of slander certainly hasn’t helped either.

Jack Frost wrote:

L-carnitine does nothing. You can purchase it by the pound on Amazon.com.

Yes, L-carnitine in form of pills does nothing/very little. L-carnitine in high doses in liquid form, which Salazar wanted to use, would have had a very noticeable effect after just 6 months.

L-carnitine in 50 ml injections does a lot and starts providing performance boosts immediately. L-carnitine in a 1 liter injection, as done with Magness, makes you a new person (think he was talking about a VO2MAX increase of 14%, that's more than EPO in such short time).

You are a fool if you think Dr Brown only administered 50 ml, they faked the medical records to 50 ml but administered much higher doses to their athletes behind the scenes.

I take issue with your analysis. Magness was a test subject but only once and it's far more likely he experienced a placebo effect, as a 14% VO2 max boost would've been shockingly apparent in the performances of the athletes. There clearly wasn't a performance benefit as the injections were not consistent or recurring.

LateRunnerPhil wrote:

Jack Frost wrote:

L-carnitine does nothing. You can purchase it by the pound on Amazon.com.

Yes, L-carnitine in form of pills does nothing/very little. L-carnitine in high doses in liquid form, which Salazar wanted to use, would have had a very noticeable effect after just 6 months.

L-carnitine in 50 ml injections does a lot and starts providing performance boosts immediately. L-carnitine in a 1 liter injection, as done with Magness, makes you a new person (think he was talking about a VO2MAX increase of 14%, that's more than EPO in such short time).

You are a fool if you think Dr Brown only administered 50 ml, they faked the medical records to 50 ml but administered much higher doses to their athletes behind the scenes.

Your statements here are categorically false. Share some ACTUAL science to back up your claim here. Otherwise, you’re just spouting nonsense.

Wednesday wrote:

LateRunnerPhil wrote:

Yes, L-carnitine in form of pills does nothing/very little. L-carnitine in high doses in liquid form, which Salazar wanted to use, would have had a very noticeable effect after just 6 months.

L-carnitine in 50 ml injections does a lot and starts providing performance boosts immediately. L-carnitine in a 1 liter injection, as done with Magness, makes you a new person (think he was talking about a VO2MAX increase of 14%, that's more than EPO in such short time).

You are a fool if you think Dr Brown only administered 50 ml, they faked the medical records to 50 ml but administered much higher doses to their athletes behind the scenes.

Your statements here are categorically false. Share some ACTUAL science to back up your claim here. Otherwise, you’re just spouting nonsense.

Everything u need to read.

1) Salazar talks about the benefits of the drink (liquid form) of l-carnitine needing 24 weeks to take full effect - the 6 months I mentioned. This is also in the USADA report.

2) Magness able to keep up with Farah, Rupp and Ritz on a 15 mile tempo in 4:50 (later Magness said it was 5:05) with the elite athletes getting very upset during the run that Magness was able to hang for so long. This was after the 1 liter infusion of L-carnitine.

3) Salazar let the doped Magness run with his elite runner to show them how effective the infusion was. Farah went on to win double Olympic gold some time later, guess what he might have been on?

LateRunnerPhil wrote:

Jack Frost wrote:

L-carnitine does nothing. You can purchase it by the pound on Amazon.com.

Yes, L-carnitine in form of pills does nothing/very little. L-carnitine in high doses in liquid form, which Salazar wanted to use, would have had a very noticeable effect after just 6 months.

L-carnitine in 50 ml injections does a lot and starts providing performance boosts immediately. L-carnitine in a 1 liter injection, as done with Magness, makes you a new person (think he was talking about a VO2MAX increase of 14%, that's more than EPO in such short time).

You are a fool if you think Dr Brown only administered 50 ml, they faked the medical records to 50 ml but administered much higher doses to their athletes behind the scenes.

You are a fool if you believe such BS.

Correct me if I'm wrong but if that allegedly happened in December of 2011 and they were given injections in January of 2012, could they not have just consumed the drink from the on until the Olympics? That timeline would have allowed for whatever cumulative effect to take place, if there is even one. Plus, it is worth noting that Magness was not some fat slob who randomly acquired 5:05 pace ability. He had been jumping in workouts as a pacemaker frequently and was nearly a 4:00 miler in his heyday.

No. That may be all you need to read to be convinced but realize that you're relying on information provided by Salazar and Magness - not exactly reliable scientific references. Nothing you wrote above provides actual evidence that l-carnitine is beneficial in any shape or form.

It doesnt matter if it actually improves your VO2 max 14%. What is relevant is that Salazar thought it did and said that specifically.

If he did 1 liter infusions of saline before every workout, it's a doping violation, but it would have no benefit. A doping violation doesnt need a measurable benefit to be a violation.

If he did, yes. However no one has alleged that and it certainly was not established. Now we're in the thought crime zone. What a load.

Jack Frost wrote:

If he did, yes. However no one has alleged that and it certainly was not established. Now we're in the thought crime zone. What a load.

The whole episode, the way it has been spun out and everything else is just so completely and utterly ridiculous.

L Carnitine is an amino acid involved in converting fat to ATP which is a very slow process and can't BOOST VO2 MAX.

For anyone to believe it especially Magness, just beggars belief.

It seems to me that Salazar is paying dearly for his own naivety.

It's not even an amino acid. It is wholly ineffective in any short term use.

The entire discussion of Lcarnitine in this thread is irrelevant. Nobody was suspended for L-car.

I too actually read the report and came away surprised that he was banned for 4 years. EPO dopers tend to be banned for 4 years, but the rule-breaking from Salazar was very minimal. Magness was on the coaching staff at the time and was obviously not considered an active athlete by anyone (no race results for over 2 years). The fact that he did the L-Carnitine test on Magness shows that Salazar fully intended on keeping the rules.

Somebody who fully intends on keeping the rules and makes a mistake based on a technicality (Magness being technically an athlete) should not be banned for 4 years. A slap on the wrist maybe, but this is ridiculous.

And I also agree that the media blows it out of proportion, just like everything else in this day and age.

The crux of his ban was that he performed an IV infusion of l-carnitine on Magness. That's the "smoking gun".

I imagine every person posting on LR looks basically like Magness (including me).

https://d2779tscntxxsw.cloudfront.net/592443f407d89.jpeg?width=1200&quality=80

I read the report wrote:

The entire discussion of Lcarnitine in this thread is irrelevant. Nobody was suspended for L-car.

It is relevant because "doping violation" and "doping scheme" are equivalent to the use of performance enhancing drugs - and l-carnitine is NOT a performance enhancing drug. To people who don't know to look any further, all of the headlines would have one believe that Alberto's athletes were using Epo or something but that is not the case. It is important to distinguish. Was what he did foolish? Yes. Were his athletes doping? No.

Wednesday wrote:

I read the report wrote:

The entire discussion of Lcarnitine in this thread is irrelevant. Nobody was suspended for L-car.

It is relevant because "doping violation" and "doping scheme" are equivalent to the use of performance enhancing drugs - and l-carnitine is NOT a performance enhancing drug. To people who don't know to look any further, all of the headlines would have one believe that Alberto's athletes were using Epo or something but that is not the case. It is important to distinguish. Was what he did foolish? Yes. Were his athletes doping? No.

The whole drug testing industry is complete BS anyway.

LateRunnerPhil wrote:

Jack Frost wrote:

L-carnitine does nothing. You can purchase it by the pound on Amazon.com.

Yes, L-carnitine in form of pills does nothing/very little. L-carnitine in high doses in liquid form, which Salazar wanted to use, would have had a very noticeable effect after just 6 months.

L-carnitine in 50 ml injections does a lot and starts providing performance boosts immediately. L-carnitine in a 1 liter injection, as done with Magness, makes you a new person (think he was talking about a VO2MAX increase of 14%, that's more than EPO in such short time).

You are a fool if you think Dr Brown only administered 50 ml, they faked the medical records to 50 ml but administered much higher doses to their athletes behind the scenes.

And you know that Salazar experimented enough to know exactly how long it took for overdoses of L-carnitine to drop under the testing radar. His experiments would have gone from 50ml to 1 liter. Salazar would know exactly when he could do another overdose to keep his athletes sharp.