How talented of an athlete is a high schooler that can run sub 50 400m AND sub 15 5k?

dmitlof1 wrote:

According to Milesplit’s database, only 1 high schooler accomplished sub 50 and sub 15 for the 2018-19 school year. That was Michael Abeyta of Texas who ran 49.9 and 14:50 in XC. For reference he’s a 1:53, 4:16, 9:13 guy so I expect there are some others with similar times who could also accomplish the feat.

Not always true of course. I know a 9:10 high school 3200 runner who could only do about a 58 in the 400.

Hence the reason this thread was started... nice work.

To run sub 15 in high school you are probably one of the top 50 high school runners in the country in any given year.

I would assume thousands of guys can run sub 50 in high school, so its not a measure of elite talent, but nevertheless beyond the capability of probably more than 95% of the population.

I would bet that if you can run sub 50 you probably have better speed than at least 75% of the people who can run Sub 15 at any level.

Based on that, I would estimate there are something like 10 or so guys a year who have the talent, but far fewer than that actually do it.

Smorbun wrote:

dmitlof1 wrote:

According to Milesplit’s database, only 1 high schooler accomplished sub 50 and sub 15 for the 2018-19 school year. That was Michael Abeyta of Texas who ran 49.9 and 14:50 in XC. For reference he’s a 1:53, 4:16, 9:13 guy so I expect there are some others with similar times who could also accomplish the feat.

Not always true of course. I know a 9:10 high school 3200 runner who could only do about a 58 in the 400.

0% chance a 9:10 HS 3200 runner could only run a 58 sec 400m. Not sure why anyone ever says/believes nonsense like that.

For the original poster, a guy who can legit go sub 50 and sub 15 on a regular XC course is a very special athlete, one that will never be limited by lack of genetics that's for sure.

another perspective wrote:

Smorbun wrote:

Not always true of course. I know a 9:10 high school 3200 runner who could only do about a 58 in the 400.

0% chance a 9:10 HS 3200 runner could only run a 58 sec 400m. Not sure why anyone ever says/believes nonsense like that.

Salazar ran 8:20 off 57s 400m speed. Easily possible if someone is an aerobic monster with only slow-twitch muscles. These are outliers - 80% of people in an event will have roughly similar distribution of muscle fiber types, but there will be those that are extremely fast-twitch like currently Lewandowski in the 1500m or Coe in the past and some that are super slow-twitch like Salazar or the 58/9:10 guy this guy mentioned.

I worked with a guy who ran 49 low and 13:30s low, and also 28 low for 10k. He ran in the U.S. Olympic trials for 5k and 10k, but was not close to making the team ... he was out before the finals. So, your looking for someone who is pretty darned good.

Here's a live case study for you. Pretty sure he split 49.xx in HS in the 4x400

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mac_Fleet

When I was at Brevard College (way, way, way back when) we had two guys, one from Florida and one from South Carolina. Both ran sub 50 open 400's, sub 48.5 rolling 400's (mile relay, dmr legs). The one from Florida was about a 1:50.5 800m guy who could also run low 25's for 8K during cross season. (Think he ran about a 4:11-12 mile as well.) The one from South Carolina I think ended up running 1:52, 3:49 (1500m), 14:40's 5K (road race), sub 25 8k. Pretty talented chaps and they could maintain their speed year round. Just super, super talented from low end to high end.

To the original question:

Very big deal if female. World record potential in various events.

Unremarkable if male. Unlikely to ever set a World record.

dmitlof1 wrote:

According to Milesplit’s database, only 1 high schooler accomplished sub 50 and sub 15 for the 2018-19 school year. That was Michael Abeyta of Texas who ran 49.9 and 14:50 in XC. For reference he’s a 1:53, 4:16, 9:13 guy so I expect there are some others with similar times who could also accomplish the feat.

Thank you for your rational sober analysis. A page or two ago, kids were throwing the names of their teammates on this thread, stating a lot of U.S. lads each year are FAT sub-50 400m guys and sub-15 5K guys.

So many well know young men from 1970's & 1980's could not. Others I did not list who I am sure did not. I am sure Steve Scott, a low mileage guy in high school was not a sub-15 5K man in high school. Was Jim Spivey a FAT sub-50 400m man in high school? I know Spivey was in sub-15 5K fitness in high school. Wasn't Prefontaine a 1:54.xx 880 yard guy in high school? That means Prefontaine certainly was not a FAT sub-50 400m guy in high school.

If there really are a lot of high school FAT sub-50 400m guys, stay focused!

Well, your thread title says “can run” not, how many “do run.”

but grant fish can't ... wrote:

Former Iowa Great wrote:

You are correct. Fisher has had 49 second speed since junior year of HS. And his in-state rival Brazier could have done it too.

According to you Grant Fisher fans, Fisher needs to start a thread: Why can't I race sub-1:51.8 800m? What is wrong with me?

It is simple... Grant F is a nice guy...kind person...He does not have the ability to "Run on Pure Hate." Running an 800m race on pure hate and Grant runs 1:46 easy!

dmitlof1 wrote:

According to Milesplit’s database, only 1 high schooler accomplished sub 50 and sub 15 for the 2018-19 school year. That was Michael Abeyta of Texas who ran 49.9 and 14:50 in XC. For reference he’s a 1:53, 4:16, 9:13 guy so I expect there are some others with similar times who could also accomplish the feat.

Forget the for a second the fact that Abetya was the only person in the country to accomplish this feat last year, which for him, is a pretty cool thing to be able to claim. But look at his marks across the board. All of them are very good and any team would be happy to have an athlete that could do even one of these things. But none of those times on their own indicate an athlete whose talent is special. In fact, his times at the middle distances are slower than what I suggested would be necessary to expect that someone would be able to accomplish this.

The original question was about how talented is a high school athlete who can accomplish sub 50 and sub 15. I think there are a fair number of athletes who can do this. I also said that almost none actually do it. But I would say if you lined up everyone from NXN and Footlocker and set up a few reasonably sized heats of the 5k instead of running on a cross country course, quite a few of them would break 15. If you then gave each of those athletes appropriate down time and then trained them to peak for the 400m at the end of track season, a good number of them would break 50. People cast doubt on my original estimate of 25, but I still think that number is reasonable.

SomeoneWhoKnows wrote:

Range Rover wrote:

Discus.

Arjun Jha of Indiana University was a 49 second 400 guy and ran 14:56 in high school in Ohio. He also ran 1:50 in the 800 in a relay.

He then ran 13:56 as a true freshman this past spring.

How talented is that? He's one of the most talented distance runners in the nation.

this is the formula for elite 800 or miler.

what you want to do is get the 400 down to 47, and do cross country in the fall, but not try an win anything in cross.

from there you check out the 800. don't try the 1500 until you are really sure its better.

don't do an andrew wheating, where you were looking at 142 and the AR, only to move up, based on coaches bad ideas.

if you have 47 low with cross, you can do rounds. and anything can happen in the 8.

longjack wrote:

SomeoneWhoKnows wrote:

Arjun Jha of Indiana University was a 49 second 400 guy and ran 14:56 in high school in Ohio. He also ran 1:50 in the 800 in a relay.

He then ran 13:56 as a true freshman this past spring.

How talented is that? He's one of the most talented distance runners in the nation.

this is the formula for elite 800 or miler.

what you want to do is get the 400 down to 47, and do cross country in the fall, but not try an win anything in cross.

from there you check out the 800. don't try the 1500 until you are really sure its better.

don't do an andrew wheating, where you were looking at 142 and the AR, only to move up, based on coaches bad ideas.

if you have 47 low with cross, you can do rounds. and anything can happen in the 8.

john walker, was the first sub 350 miler, only due to jim ryun never running a proper race, as well as kip kenio.

walker could run 49 400m around 19 years old, that is with stupid sprint training, very stupid, and was cross country deadly. his training ended up being best for like 2000m and never ran the 8oo close to properly.

around 1976 the injury bug set in and had to settle for the long super journey man status.

but an OG gold WRs, and the most sub 4 miles, that's hard to top.

still you can ask him, what would he do different.

he's want the 47 400m so he could toast coe and ovett.

longjack wrote:

this is the formula for elite 800 or miler.

what you want to do is get the 400 down to 47, and do cross country in the fall, but not try an win anything in cross.

from there you check out the 800. don't try the 1500 until you are really sure its better.

don't do an andrew wheating, where you were looking at 142 and the AR, only to move up, based on coaches bad ideas.

if you have 47 low with cross, you can do rounds. and anything can happen in the 8.

This is exactly what Max Burgin, and other young British talents like Ethan Hussey are doing, it seems with spectacular success - straight from the Steve Ovett rule book.

The father/coach of Max has stated that he is trying to train him the way that Ovett/Coe trained in their teens, and that the reason why GB hasn't produced any stars since the 80's is precisely because they stopped training like the old days.

another perspective wrote:

Smorbun wrote:

Not always true of course. I know a 9:10 high school 3200 runner who could only do about a 58 in the 400.

0% chance a 9:10 HS 3200 runner could only run a 58 sec 400m. Not sure why anyone ever says/believes nonsense like that.

For the original poster, a guy who can legit go sub 50 and sub 15 on a regular XC course is a very special athlete, one that will never be limited by lack of genetics that's for sure.

My HS teammate ran 9:09 and 15:10 (on the track). He was only a 56.x runner, and that was a relay split. My other teammate, who also ran 56 low relay split in HS (and was only 4:32/9:48 HS runner) later ran 8:45 2M, 14:15, low 29s and 214 for the marathon. He was only able to run about 58 for the 400m after HS when he was actually fast.

My college teammate ran 55.x for 400m and ran 8:26 3000m, 14:25 5000m, and 29:53 10k (with a 59s last lap).

I know it seems weird, but it happens.

Salazar is probably stalking right now, befriending his parents and finding his size for the 4% and the horse rider running bra that fixed posture.

I am sticking with 10. Yes there would be 25 with 50.x and 15:0x but not 49.x and 14:xx.