SUPERIOR COACH JS wrote:
HRE wrote:
What do I think actually went wrong with western training in the nineties? I think they didn't run enough and thought they could compensate by being clever and finding magic combinations of workouts. But that's just my opinion.
Interesting opinion HRE. )) I think I have seen somewhere that most of them just had too much of quality workouts in their programs. It is otherwise quite strange that runners like Lagat, Musyoki, Nyambui,Willis could reach the world top but not the American runners in the -90s. I trained one day with Suleiman Nyambui , Olympic silver 5000m - 1980 , and he told me he only trained singles because he was too tired in the mornings, He also told that he used to run 6-8 x 800m at 2:06-2:08 as a regular workout . He ran 5000m at 13: 12 and I ran 14:20 . I did same workout 6-8 x 800m at 2:16 and when I compare our times I see that the difference at every lap was about 5 sec both in training and race. This is some way to show my opinion that it`s mainly a pace thing to reach individual best results.
We may not be too far apart in our thinking here though not in complete agreement. I saw a quote from Snell recently to the effect that how fast you can race depends on how much running you can do at something close to your race pace and what determines that is your aerobic fitness, i.e. how many training miles you've done. Lydiard always told people that the point of his base phase with all the miles you did was to get you fit enough to do the interval phase. He always said that his athletes could do more and better sessions of reps than their rivals because the base phase made them fit enough to handle a lot of rep work when the time came to do that.
So if you have people doing a lot of miles from the 60s to the start of the 90s and doing intervals as well you could envision that they were better prepared for those intervals and could benefit from sessions that were beyond a lot of 90s runners who did not have the mileage background that their predecessors had. Sessions that could be beneficial to someone with a background of 100 mile weeks could be too hard for runners with less miles under their belts. The latter group would need, to use Lydiard's phrase, to race their training to do some sessions that runners with more mileage do and it would eventually wear them down. On top of that, I always think that when you talk about "quality training" you can easily be seduced into wanting to run really impressive sessions and run too hard.
I read about that somewhere too. I'm trying to think of a way to elongate my calf.
J-ake S-ober wrote:
DOUBLES FTW wrote:
Did you read it?
Yes.Therefore I said what I said. Brad Hudson told in interview: `A lot of the science shows that once you reach the 80 minutes,there is a bigger in endurance enzymes made. ` Hudson notes that studies have shown that the differences of enzymatic produktion from 60 to 80 min are ENORMOUS.
`Additionally,completing training in singles allows the body more rest` `When you are doingsingles, you are giving the body a full 24 hours of rest` , Hudson points out.
`Another benefit that takes place duringthe long single is that you burn more fat than you do with two shorter doubles`
https://www.runnersworld.com/advanced/a20793342/single-session-workouts-for-marathoners/
What if someone lives in a hot and humid climate?
J-ake S-ober wrote:
DOUBLES FTW wrote:
Did you read it?
Yes.Therefore I said what I said. Brad Hudson told in interview: `A lot of the science shows that once you reach the 80 minutes,there is a bigger in endurance enzymes made. ` Hudson notes that studies have shown that the differences of enzymatic produktion from 60 to 80 min are ENORMOUS.
`Additionally,completing training in singles allows the body more rest` `When you are doingsingles, you are giving the body a full 24 hours of rest` , Hudson points out.
`Another benefit that takes place duringthe long single is that you burn more fat than you do with two shorter doubles`
https://www.runnersworld.com/advanced/a20793342/single-session-workouts-for-marathoners/
Why do you need 24 hours to recover from a run?
Anyways if you cared to read the article, here are some key take a ways:
"If we look at growth hormone release during easy running, there’s a swift rise intitially for the first 30-40min of a run, and then it levels off significantly to 60min. In one study, it showed an increase of about 550 percent from 0-40min, yet from 40-60min it only went up another 40-50percent."
"Some researchers have suggested that training in a fatigued state may enhance subsequent adaptations. It has been found that training in a glycogen depleted state enhances gene transcription of several markers of training adaptation (Yeo et al. 2008, Hansen et al. 2005). Low muscle glycogen amplifies the activation of signalling proteins (in particular AMPK and MAPK for those who are interested). Both of these proteins help control gene transcription, which ultimately result in adaptations like increased mitochondria.
In two studies on training every day versus training twice every other day, increases in enzyme activity have been more significantly increased in the twice every other day group. In the study by Hansen et al., they used knee extensor exercises with one leg being trained every day and the other twice every other day (2005). The twice every other day leg should significant better time till exhaustion at the end of the training, along with the increased enzyme activity."
"In the study by Yeo et al., they compared two different groups using cycling as the means of training (2008). The groups performed either easy or interval training, with the every day group alternating each day between hard and easy. The twice every other day group performed an easy ride early, then the interval session. In their study glycogen content, fat oxidation, and CS and HAD enzyme activity were higher in the twice every other day group, but performance was equally increased in both groups.
What these studies and their findings suggest is that occasional training in a depleted state may lead to increased adaptations. "
who's lying ???? wrote:
Kenyan mzungu wrote:
I know how it is.Most of the Kenyan and Ethiopian kids dont run to school and back. Some of them do it. Its just a myth that many of them run twice a day getting to school and back.
so all the east African champions who said they ran to school and back are lying?
Name "all of the East Africans" who said that?
Urban legends wrote:
who's lying ???? wrote:
so all the east African champions who said they ran to school and back are lying?
Name "all of the East Africans" who said that?
Haile Gebrselassie, Patrick Musyoki, and Rhonex Kipruto are a few that come to my mind.
Lydiard is my lord and savior wrote:
However, it is foolish to rely on science over your personal experience. Science, the data can be manipulated or falsified. I just know doing doubles, even when keeping the mileage the same, my legs feel better. I don't need a scientific explanation for this, I just know how I feel.
Try this when you have cancer or a heart problem.
dan062419 wrote:
From Wikipedia: "Aerobic exercise provokes a systemic cytokine response, including, for example, IL-6, IL-1 receptor antagonist (IL-1ra), and IL-10 (Interleukin 10). IL-6 was serendipitously discovered as a myokine because of the observation that it increased in an exponential fashion proportional to the length of exercise and the amount of muscle mass engaged in the exercise."
Might indicate it's better to do one longer run than a double to stimulate muscle regeneration.
Whitlock was doing 3 hours straight every day for several days, and Dykes was doing 200 mile ultras in 100 hours. Both were the fastest 70 year old marathoners.
El Guerrouj did 2 runs per day, but is seems like an elite thing to do, so that they actually have aerobic work, also to recover faster
There was a dime a dozen 9:42 2 miler from Oregon in the 60s who didn’t make his state meet and was super pissed so his coach told him “if you want to be good you got to run in the mornings” he said “he didn’t check up on him to do so, he just knew if he wanted to be the best he’d do them”
He went undefeated his cross season, trained again through the winter and came out as a 9:03 2 miler and 4:13-2 miler
Give the guy another summer of good running and he clicked off a 8:41 and 4:06 and went off to his local state university
You don’t need to be elite to start doubles, do everything to see how far you can go