Ping...Ping...They go 1 and 2 at Minnesota 3200m

The ping situation intrigues me because i love running/track as a sport and i also am very interested as an educatorin youth development. The Pings are a perfect i intersection of these two things.

I give the girls credit as fas as i can tell because they seem to be quietly respectful in going about their business. They also seem to enjoy the sport- good for them.

This thing goes off the rails for me when the process becomes too professionalized at such an early age. The decision to start a running camp for serious runners (done by their parents) and to have an outside professional coach at such a young age is at a minimum unnecessary for running success and for personel development. These are just two wide open examples of a problem. I hope there arent any other problems beneath the surface and that will emerge in the future.

The professionalism in their approach as youth and the decisions to move, constantly travel to races, etc is all being done for the main reason of immediate success. Sure there might be some additional future success but a different approach in their youth would still allow for future success.

There are many great things our sport can teach. One of them is pacing. I hope they are “pacing” themselves appropriately so that they can get the most out of the sport over their entire race(running careers)

And so it goes wrote:

There are many great things our sport can teach. One of them is pacing. I hope they are “pacing” themselves appropriately so that they can get the most out of the sport over their entire race(running careers)

That's a refreshing, sane perspective: as opposed to the "Swimming..." guy above who appears to think that a runner's career development is finished unless they are accumulating an unbroken string of track PR's year-after-year.......

Doubling at the state tournament in 90 degree heat they blew away the field and jogged it home to split the medals.

Obviously PRs were unlikely.

In January Grace beat a dozen collegiate runners and placed 4th at the USATF Juniors and got an auto spot at U20 Worlds.

Later she finished 10th at NACAC U20 in Trinidad and 60th at Worlds U20 in Aarhus, as a 15 year old.

And then pocketed another gold and silver at state.

Even if she doesn't improve and all she gets out of her career is a free ride at a decent college and a career as a running coach/trainer/teacher she will have done more than most.

But that won't be enough for the fanboys.

Minnesota XC Fan wrote:

Well .... wrote:

Where is the video?

Sorry, I don't have a link available to that video to post it. FWIW, here's Lauren running a 4:50.64 in another 1600 a few weeks ago:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I8pHg4iDy9I

To get an idea of the finish in the State 1600, picture Lauren unleashing a kick near the finish similar to what she did in this video, and being unable to overtake Grace.

Here's the full race video:

Scroll down to A Track and Awards (Finals) and the race starts at 1:52:30 in the video

stateroftheoblivious wrote:

Doubling at the state tournament in 90 degree heat they blew away the field and jogged it home to split the medals.

Obviously PRs were unlikely.

In January Grace beat a dozen collegiate runners and placed 4th at the USATF Juniors and got an auto spot at U20 Worlds.

Later she finished 10th at NACAC U20 in Trinidad and 60th at Worlds U20 in Aarhus, as a 15 year old.

And then pocketed another gold and silver at state.

Even if she doesn't improve and all she gets out of her career is a free ride at a decent college and a career as a running coach/trainer/teacher she will have done more than most.

But that won't be enough for the fanboys.

Thank you! Another sane perspective!

It will be enough for everyone. People are merely predicting what they think her future will hold. Others seem to think she will be an olympian.

Given that the French have a proud history of ultra-logical thinkers like Descartes, and you seem to struggle making basic logical points and sticking to a coherent argument, then it seems unlikely that your problem is being too French. Every time someone shoots down one of your arguments, you shift to another one that is equally invalid, hurl insults and accuse people of having nefarious intentions, and you are now saying that the matter should not even be debated. You sound more like North Korea than France.

Indoor? and others are not telling the Pings or any other parents what to do. This is a message board about running. People are discussing the pros and cons of intense pre-pubescent training on the future of young girls. Not every parent or coach needs to follow that advice, but they would be really stupid not to at least read about the experiences of others and make a well informed decision. Many parents do not have enough knowledge about running to make informed decisions and think about it like other sports. There is little harm in a 12 year old dribbling a basketball and practicing free throws all summer. The same cannot be said for running. It is message boards like this that at least clue them into the fact that there is such a difference.

Now a question for Indoor? and other actual experienced coaches -- how much is too much? I am especially interested in the management of freshman/sophomore girls who are 14/15 and have started the early stages of puberty (irregular periods, some development etc) but clearly have more to go. The truth is that many coaches want to do the right thing, but just don't have the experience (e.g., they coach small teams where many of the girls are not very serious, have a few good runners and mixed success developing them).

If a girl in that age range is doing 20 / 30 miles per week, running CC/indoor/outdoor (with intensity changing within each season and a taking a week off periodically) and not getting injured or overly tired, is that fine? Might they be delaying development, setting themselves up for injury in the future? Should they be running low intensity stuff all summer, or taking more time off? Every girl is different, but since the impacts of over-training at this age are manifested later as opposed to simultaneously, you can't only rely on the old "listen to your body" as a guide. One needs some kind of overall ceiling.

Now this is just from my experience as a 12 year coach so I feel like have some idea, at the same time I'm no scientist or anything like that. I am USATF Level 2 certified.

I feel like pre puberty it's certainly ok for girls to train consistently if it's something they enjoy doing. Probably starting around grade 6 is pretty good. The best girl I've ever coached started running as a 6th grader, probably never got over 20 miles a week at that age, as 7th and 8th grader was around 25-30 but with a day off most weeks and the normal time off in between seasons etc... And she was good in MS, people thought she'd be the next big thing and for the most part weren't wrong. MS PRs of 2:24, 5:11, 11:00 and maybe 18:05 on a road 5k. Intensity wise she had done a fair amount of tempo work and some pace work, but not too much of either. So she had done a good job in MS but also not worked super hard.

In HS we took the mileage up and she ended her career around 45 miles most weeks and would hit 50 every now and then. We don't do a lot of pace work, just a lot of tempos and sprints, we race too much.

Ended her career with PRs of 56, 2:08, 4:50, 10:29, 17:24 xc. So solid progression but it certainly wasn't straight across which brings me to my next point.

You asked about that early stage of puberty and I'm not sure but I think the early stage isn't as bad as the middle or the end. The early stage girls might have grown some and gotten the energy boost and that might be where you see that sharp peak for some of these girls and then the quick crash. What we have found is that usually for about an 8-12 month span somewhat centered around sophomore year things just suck for a while. Runs that were easy are now hard, races, especially longer distance ones get slower. This was true for our girl above and several others we have had. It usually ends up hitting 2 seasons, so could be a freshman track to sophomore xc or just both seasons sophomore year or could stretch into junior year even. It seems to be their energy systems just get way out of whack and they get tired super easy. In my opinion the worse thing you can do is to keep doing what's normal and piling on the mileage. It takes a good relationship with the kid and parents but being honest and talking about and having a plan has seemed to help. This is 100% a physical thing but if you don't handle it correctly it can easily become just as much of a mental thing. It's important for the kids to believe they can come out better. So we really highlight our kids who have done well as freshman, maybe not done so well as sophomores but then rebounded junior or senior year. Certainly puberty can happen to some girls in a way that they don't have much chance, but we've found if you work hard, stay positive and believe in yourself things normally work out. Training wise during this period we back off, work in a lot of bike and racing go lower, race 400s/800s, work on speed (sprints) as these things are as effected so way easier to stay close to normal level or still improve even.

If you ask me the problem with a lot of these high profile kids is that when they get to that point the backslide is such a shock they(parents, coaches, kids) react to it in the only way that makes sense which is to work harder, or drastically improve diet(which sometimes leads to calorie restriction). This most often leads to injuries or at the very best just frustration that this harder work isn't helping. That's when you might hear things like "Oh we just treated that race as a workout" or "There's some minor sickness going on" trying to mask or have a reason for the kid who had PRd for 3 straight years to be running 20 seconds slower. Can they overcome it? Certainly and hopefully but you may have to deal with injuries and mental struggles to do that.

Minnesota XC Fan wrote:

And so it goes wrote:

There are many great things our sport can teach. One of them is pacing. I hope they are “pacing” themselves appropriately so that they can get the most out of the sport over their entire race(running careers)

That's a refreshing, sane perspective: as opposed to the "Swimming..." guy above who appears to think that a runner's career development is finished unless they are accumulating an unbroken string of track PR's year-after-year.......

You do not read very well. I stated the young lady will most likely be wanted by a D-1 or D-2 program. Yes, when teenagers stop setting personal bests every year, unless there was a specific reason, teenagers rarely go back to setting personal bests at a later date. This occurs in both running and swimming.

Scanning the start lists for NBNO, I came across the Pings as entries:

Lauren is running in the Girls 1 Mile, in the same Section as Starliper and Ewert:

Event 10 Girls 1 Mile Run Championship:

Section 3 Timed Finals

1 5557 Stewart, Riley 22 Stewart-Rile, En

2 3959 Kane, Kileigh 19 Nittany Tc-P, St

3 4451 Ping, Lauren 23 Ping-Lauren-, Wi

4 5544 Starliper, Marlee 20 Starliper-Ma, We

5 4805 Schadler, Samantha 09 Rich River T, Tu

6 4091 Novak, Sophie 21 Novak-Sophie, La

7 424 Ewert, Taylor 20 Beavercreek, Day

8 5203 Riggins, Melissa 21 Shady Side A, Pi

9 1204 Cole, Emily 19 Cole-Emily-T, Ho

10 778 Bucher, Emma 21 Bucher-Emma-, Da

11 50 Ackley, Adelyn 19 Ackley-Adely, Me

12 625 Boogerd, Skylar 19 Boogerd-Skyl, At

13 2218 Goldstein, Isabelle 20 Goldstein-Is, Am

Grace is running in the Girls 5000 in Section 1. Chmiel and Masciarelli are running in Section2:

Event 14 Girls 5000 Meter Run Championship

Section 1 Timed Finals

1 5960 Trapheagen, McKenna 20 Trapheagen-M, Eu

2 5274 Tenney, Kathryn 19 Sky's The Li, Al

3 3277 Lockhart, MariCagle 20 Lockhart-Mar, Cl

4 4760 Rehm, Madeline 19 Rehm-Madelin, Co

5 4648 Pustilnik, Rylee 20 Pustilnik-Ry, De

6 1995 Thomas, Alexandra 19 Flying Dutch, Or

7 2821 Jess, Eva 21 Jess-Eva-TX-, El

8 642 Boutin, Emily 20 Boutin-Emily, Ch

9 1945 Fischer, Caroline 20 Fischer-Caro, me

10 1427 Davis, Meghan 19 Davis-Meghan, Pl

11 1562 Doogan, Lucinda 20 Doogan-Lucin, Br

12 1805 Vettel, Adeline 20 Emerging Eli, Wa

13 4419 Cooper, Ainsley 19 Pfafftown RC, Pf

14 3891 Chapeau, Claire 19 Nerdy Tc-Nj, Jer

15 6119 Kirby, Caroline 10 University T, Mo

16 2425 Hanifin, Sarah 21 Hanifin-Sara, Lo

17 6000 Tugman, Katrina 20 Tugman-Katri, Go

18 6612 Witt, Peyton 19 Witt-Peyton-, Ka

19 928 Turk, Katie 21 Carmel Tc-NY, Ca

20 2803 Janjigian, Lily 20 Janjigian-Li, Ry

21 4450 Ping, Grace 21 Ping-Grace-M, Wi

22 1885 Altieri, Katie 21 Falcon Tc-Ny, St

23 2134 Gates, Makena 21 Gates-Makena, Ca

24 2889 Lorsbach, Miranda 22 Kent Place T, Su

25 6262 Walsh, Kerri 20 Walsh-Kerri-, Ce

--------------------------------

I hadn't heard they were going to NBNO......and not sure if these are the only events they're entered in (might have missed something). Note that 8th-grade Lauren skipped entering the junior high Mile (which she would have been a strong favorite to win), electing to run in the Championship race instead. Looking forward to seeing how they do.....

Looks like Lauren is also running in Section 1 of the 2 Mile. Chmiel and Masciarelli are in Section 2:

Event 12 Girls 2 Mile Run Championship

Section 1 Timed Finals

1 2368 Hall, Elise 19 Hall-Elise-G, Ma

2 6572 Wilson, Kelli 20 Wilson-Kelli, Da

3 1371 DaDamio, Audrey 21 DaDamio-Audr, Bl

4 408 Singh, Roshni 20 Bay Shore TC, Ba

5 942 Carter, Emily 21 Carter-Emily, Be

6 2246 Graham, Cassidy 22 Graham-Cassi, Cy

7 4556 Sullivan, Elizabeth 19 Portsmouth T, Po

8 341 Baeyens, Laura 20 Baeyens-Laur, 12

9 3570 Mick, Lauryn 20 Mick-Lauryn-, Sy

10 6265 Walters, Leigh 21 Walters-Leig, Fr

11 4451 Ping, Lauren 23 Ping-Lauren-, Wi

12 4967 Rogers, Samantha 20 Rogers-Saman, Au

13 1545 Dobson, Ava 20 Dobson-Ava-S, Gr

14 2308 Noble, Mari 21 Greenwich TC, Ol

15 50 Ackley, Adelyn 19 Ackley-Adely, Me

16 6619 Wolfe, Kaitlynn 20 Wolfe-Kaitly, Bl

17 6225 Harrington, Kelsey 20 Virginia Bea, Br

18 4553 Allen, Olive 19 Portsmouth T, Li

19 779 Ford, Meghan 21 Buffalo City, Ja

Update: As of this morning, Grace has been reassigned from Section 1 to Section 2 of the Girls 5000. So she is now scheduled to be running in the same Section as Chmiel and Masciarelli:

Event 14 Girls 5000 Meter Run Championship

Section 2 Timed Finals

1 4441 Russell, Lydia 20 Phoenix Tc-P, Br

2 427 Roark, Savannah 20 Beavercreek, Bea

3 6457 Westley, Alexa 19 Westley-Alex, Ha

4 6619 Wolfe, Kaitlynn 20 Wolfe-Kaitly, Bl

5 3645 Ragenklint, Samantha 19 Monmouth Tc-, Ti

6 4417 Petr, Anna 20 Petr-Anna-MI, Gr

7 5086 Sagar, Isabell 19 Sagar-Isabel, Wi

8 2783 Jacobs-Townsley, Sophia 19 Jacobs-Towns, Am

9 942 Carter, Emily 21 Carter-Emily, Be

10 434 Behrens, Ella 19 Behrens-Ella, Ch

11 5634 Adriaens, Noelle 19 Taco King TC, Br

12 332 Richmond, Rhiannon 20 Avon Tc-Ct, Avon

13 2308 Noble, Mari 21 Greenwich TC, Ol

14 2921 Chmiel, Kelsey 19 Kinetic Tc-N, Sa

15 3418 Masciarelli, Sydney 21 Masciarelli-, No

16 4650 Quarzo, Gionna 20 Quarzo-Gionn, Br

17 5212 Shearer, Helen 20 Shearer-Hele, Ha

18 3238 Liljegren, Daisy 20 Liljegren-Da, Ho

19 4450 Ping, Grace 21 Ping-Grace-M, Wi

20 3117 Edelman, Zoe 21 Latin Lions-, Wa

21 6526 Whoolery, Hayley 20 Wildcats Tc-, Be

22 19 Mathis, Jordan 20 620 Running-, Au

23 4101 Nowicki, Sydney 21 Nowicki-Sydn, Lo

24 1974 FitzPatrick, Molly 21 FitzPatrick-, Ba

25 4612 Priu, Katharine 19 Priu-Kathari, Ra

Results for the Pings this weekend:

Grace 10th in the Championship 5000 @ 17:14.04

Lauren 5th in the Championship 2 Mile @ 10:23.28 (converts to a 10:19.66 3200--a PR for her by 5.46 seconds).

Lauren 17th in the Championship 1 Mile @ 4:58.47 (converts to a 4:56.74 1600--6.10 seconds off her PR of 04:50.64).

Props to Lauren for choosing (as an 8th grader) to run in the Championship races, rather than the JH races. Her times above would have made her an easy winner in both the JH 2 Mile and the JH 1 Mile.

Grace was 2nd as a 7th grader. She is moving in the wrong direction.

Minnesota XC Fan wrote:

Results for the Pings this weekend:

Grace 10th in the Championship 5000 @ 17:14.04

Lauren 5th in the Championship 2 Mile @ 10:23.28 (converts to a 10:19.66 3200--a PR for her by 5.46 seconds).

Lauren 17th in the Championship 1 Mile @ 4:58.47 (converts to a 4:56.74 1600--6.10 seconds off her PR of 04:50.64).

Props to Lauren for choosing (as an 8th grader) to run in the Championship races, rather than the JH races. Her times above would have made her an easy winner in both the JH 2 Mile and the JH 1 Mile.

Why is anyone talking about these athletes, let alone propping these performances??

Either Minnesota fans are delusional, their parents still think they are super-special, or Ping/MN fans dont seem to realize the superior talent of other athletes.

....On the big stage the Pings are VERY average.

No one cares if they set the age class world record when they were 8 1/2 years old.

Better question: Who actually won the Brooks and NB races??

Yikes, did one or the other of them wallop your kid in a race or something?

A 4:50 1600 and a 10:23 Two Mile are pretty darn good for a girl who is still in middle school........

Add Minnesota 8th grader Elliot MacArthur into the conversation, and Minnesota has both the best 8th grade boy runner and the best 8th grade girl runner in the U.S. at the present.

Someone needs a timeout....... wrote:

Yikes, did one or the other of them wallop your kid in a race or something?

A 4:50 1600 and a 10:23 Two Mile are pretty darn good for a girl who is still in middle school........

Add Minnesota 8th grader Elliot MacArthur into the conversation, and Minnesota has both the best 8th grade boy runner and the best 8th grade girl runner in the U.S. at the present.

Yikes!

Does Minessota have a pedophile problem??

Maybe Minnesota can convince Brooks & NB to have a Nationals for 13 year olds and hold it in Sota, eh.?

....Unless your 8th grader is running :48s or 1:51s, there is no galloping going on here.

You are making his point. Grace is almost a minute off of her 5k PR from a few years ago. You are building up an 8th grader when it is likely that she will fade in high school. Creating hype for children seems to backfire for most in the longrun. Pressure at 14 years old is not positive.

Someone needs a timeout....... wrote:

Yikes, did one or the other of them wallop your kid in a race or something?

A 4:50 1600 and a 10:23 Two Mile are pretty darn good for a girl who is still in middle school........

Add Minnesota 8th grader Elliot MacArthur into the conversation, and Minnesota has both the best 8th grade boy runner and the best 8th grade girl runner in the U.S. at the present.

Why do you have to ask? Isn't it obvious?

As an 8th grader, she can run in 98% maybe 99% of the boys HS Varsity teams in he country. Further, her 1600m PR would have been in the Top-8 of any state final of the past ... let's not say of the future, because as much as we claim to be able to do it, no one of us can really tell the future.

The more important point is that the overwhelming majority of the athletes groomed in accordance to Party Lines, will never hit this 1600 PR, whether in HS or College.

So, yeah, some coach is PO because after 10 years of coaching with access to 300+ athletes every year, gets whipped by a parent coaching just 2.

But I guess for some it is better to be the 100th best 23yo, or never make a D1 top-7 than be the top 8th grader in the country or the 10th-15th best High Schooler in the country as an 8th grader - I know, there are some conflicts in there.

Minnesota should be proud of them.