Cece Telfer Fairness Discussion

Men should not compete against women, period. If we don't stop this ridiculous push now we will never reverse the damage to women's sports.

stopitnow wrote:

Men should not compete against women, period. If we don't stop this ridiculous push now we will never reverse the damage to women's sports.

I feel the same. But if we take into consideration true equality and fairness, the reason that women excel and become pro athletes is at least partly due to them being born with a biological advantage.

Where do we draw that line? At what point is your biological advantage fair? Currently, it looks like we’re only measuring one facet of physiology to determine who can compete within the women’s category and that facet is not sufficient.

XX : you can compete in the women's division. XY: you can only compete in the open division

it is fair. we are a stupid society to not know how to have reasonable rules.

Athleticsfan wrote:

stopitnow wrote:

Men should not compete against women, period. If we don't stop this ridiculous push now we will never reverse the damage to women's sports.

I feel the same. But if we take into consideration true equality and fairness, the reason that women excel and become pro athletes is at least partly due to them being born with a biological advantage.

Where do we draw that line? At what point is your biological advantage fair? Currently, it looks like we’re only measuring one facet of physiology to determine who can compete within the women’s category and that facet is not sufficient.

The line is Man/Woman. There, solved all of society’s problems. You’re welcome.

This is the new world, engineered by radicals. In the name of equality, women will again be second class citizens, simply because they were born female.

Yes the radicals have elevated sexual perversion above gender and race in their annual list of favored categories. Why can't we just treat everyone equally and not put people into categories?

So this “CeCe” runs as a man for 2 years, takes a redshirt, then runs as a “woman” for a year - does that mean he has 1 more year of eligibility in general in the NCAA or 3 more as a “woman” in the NCAA? And also, WTF NCAA, you and everyone who supposedly care about sports should be ashamed of your organization. You just shredded your credibility and the protections for real women in sports. Evidently Title IX was written on toilet paper and it just got flushed.

Great , thoughtful post, OP.

Western judaeo Christian society attempts to make interactions 'fair.' Same laws, same rules for all.

In sport, I think we've evolved to conclude that fair is:

- conduct the sport with the body you have. No man made additions, physical or chemical.

- conduct the sport with the same access to equipment (spikes, swimming suits, etc)

- have officials who verify the above. Amend the rules to keep pace.

The issue w cis boys running with cis girls, is as a society we've observed that typically most boys are stronger and faster than most girls depending upon where they land on the bell curve. If we look at a normal distribution of boys v girls, the fastest boys will be easily faster than the fastest girls. So, society has created a class for girls to allow them to compete against a field of other normally distributed girls, as they'd never win otherwise.

If we allow boys to compete against girls, which we could as a society agree to, we will prevent girls from ever winning, again, once we end up with enough boys sporting against girls. I cannot see how that's fair to the girls.

I do think the right answer is to:

- PED test everyone. I think the reason we're not seeing cis boys swimming, is as USA swimming starts PED testing at the jr open level. I'm confident that as we're hearing of swimmers getting banned for stuff in vitamins, there's no way a trans athlete could pass a test.

- make an exception for trans boys who identify as girls, to allow them to sport with the boys.

Full disclosure. Have 4 kids ,girls and boys. Youngest , boy would handily beat the girl who won xc 5k states for his HS team, and has also qualified for a handful of girls Olympic swimming trials cuts.

Dyestat just did a multi part report on some other boys who are not good enough to compete against boys so they grew out their hair and started beating up on girls. One has to wonder why people who supposedly care about track would glorify its destruction. This points to a problem in our society in general - progressives know that people have common sense and will reject their nonsense, so they infiltrated organizations and use them to push their propaganda. Everyone knows allowing bio males to run against girls is nonsense, but if you frame it in glowing terms of how these gentlemen overcame obstacles to achieve something glorious for the benefit of all humanity, it somehow pulls enough heartstrings to make it seem less than disgusting. The lesson here - never let progressives have a leadership role in your organization or they will use it for their own purposes and discard it once enough damage has been done.

10 semester restriction should apply. But you never know. If this is essentially a new person, then when does the clock start? But if a different person, then the credits wouldn't count either so I am going with the 10 semester from when he started even though she will finish. What if he had competed the 3rd year during transition as a male? Would the NCAA allow her to compete 2 years ending up with 5 total? I think so. That should garner some attention from other athletes who were denied medical redshirts.

Some good commentary:

https://youtu.be/Cw6yGP74Aik

https://youtu.be/BYCr9qa3rjE

Would be great to see him come back next year as his true he and try it against the men.

The single best thing I've read on this subject is Ross Tucker's interview a few years back with Dr. Joanna Harper, who is a runner, an exercise physiologist, and MtF transgender.

https://sportsscientists.com/2016/05/hyperandrogenism-women-vs-women-vs-men-sport-qa-joanna-harper/?doing_wp_cron=1559495067.1610889434814453125000

Based primarily on Harper's thoughts, I've come to the conclusion that testosterone ain't perfect, but is the best we can do. As a female runner, I will welcome any one who has transitioned from male to female, as long as they've also lowered their testosterone levels to the required amount.

I feel much less welcoming of CeCe Telfer, as I do not believe that she has lowered her testosterone levels to the IAAF level.

In the interview above, Harper notes that having MtF athletes compete with unaltered testosterone levels will set back the acceptance of transgender athletes. That's exactly what I think we're seeing here.

Similar to some events having wheelchair races, we should have a third category for people with metal issues that believe they were born in the wrong body. The men can race the men, women can race the women (as determined by X and Y distribution), and the mentally impaired can have a race where there are no distinctions. We can give it fancy name like the Woke Division. Presumably the times there would be faster, on average, than the women’s race, so it would be more prestigious for the second tier men to claim victory at that level. Problem solved.

“Formerly a man”?

How about still a man trying to pass as a woman?

They should also have 500 points added to their SAT scores. Triple bonus points for checking boxes for incest, beastiality and necrophilia. Hopefully elite universities give them top priority.

As politicized as this issue has become, you cannot fool nature. SRS just changes a man's appearance to look like a woman, but a trans woman will still have a biological male's strength. This will be the end of women's sports as we know it if this is allowed to continue. Good point about progressives, they have already ruined other organizations like the Boy Scouts with their PC propaganda.

I think its useful to look at comparable cases and to see if there are common recurring themes, when considering these cases fair or not. One theme I would highlight straight away is that too many people focus on the transgender athlete, and not enough on the interests of female athletes, whose prospects and success are adversely affected.

Another common theme is mental illness, and a lack of treatment for that mental illness, often allied to an idealistic and unrealistic notion of what being a woman involves - generally, women are too often stereotyped as being softer than men, 'nicer', less competitive, less aggressive, less confrontational - when women show these traits, they tend to be criticised for being unfeminine or a feminist [used as an derogatory term].

The case of Lauren [formely Michael Jameson] Jeska, illustrates the worst possible outcomes of all these common themes. Lauren was convicted of the attempted murder of a British Athletics official last year [and assault of two other BA officials] and jailed for 18 years. Lauren was a three time English womens' fell running champion who had changed gender at some point after being a moderately successful junior male runner. At some point in her new female gender, she began to achieve more competitive success and to train harder and more seriously than before. This became known to British Athletics, who informed Lauren of their intention to blood test her for eligibility. The Guardian article attached claims that Lauren claims to have undergone a gonadectomy, but this has never been accompanied by evidence and indeed the evidence presented to the court seems to have been unclear, as Lauren was being required to take hormones at the time of her crime to ensure that further blood tests complied with the rules then in place. Lauren refused to provide blood tests showing her testosterone levels. In fact, there had been a number of complaints over the years about Lauren's lack of eligibility, and British Athletics had gone out of their way to treat her with sympathy whilst attempting to enforce the rules.

All of this caused Lauren some stress so she went to the British Athletics HQ armed with several knives and tried to murder the official in charge of her case. It was an exceptionally aggressive attack, and it took 6 men, plus the victim, to disarm Lauren and to stop the attack. Although the victim, an ex international rugby player, survived, he suffered permanent impairment, has been unable to work since and also suffered a stroke as a result of the attack resulting in permanent eyesight loss. Lauren claims to have suffered mental health issues as a result of the investigation by British Athletics. At the time of the attack, Lauren was 42, an age when any elite athletics career would be coming to an end anyway.

So again, we have these common themes of a transgender athlete training much harder once they become successful in racing against women, having previously been a moderate athlete as a male. Again, we have mental health issues, and again we have a total disregard for the women who have lost championships and races and prize money and opportunities from racing against a man. And again, we have enabling parents [Lauren's parents do come across as remarkably irresponsible and unsuccessful parents, and all of their children have suffered severe mental health problems], a remarkably non-critical media who fail to report on the real facts of the case [the BBC simply reported this a woman convicted of attempted murder and her crime will be statistically recorded as a crime by a woman], and confusing statements being given by the convicted which contradict the evidence presented at the trial. And of course, once again, we have individuals who see competing in women's sport as their right, who justify this on the basis that the normal rules don't apply to them.

Now, I actually read the media reports on this case when they first came out and it was reported as a crime by a female athlete. I was astonished. Then I saw a photograph of the athlete in question and immediately I knew that it was a man, even though the photo only showed her face and upper torso. To me, her shoulder span and structure was innately male, as was her face, particularly her brow area, jawline and nose. I don't believe I possess some superhuman powers of distinguishing males and females, but equally I do not believe Lauren's claims that any male physiological advantages that she possessed as a male are long gone.

By the way, take the Guardian editorial comments, which are exceptionally sympathetic towards Lauren and her slightly farcical version of attempts, with a pinch of salt. Some better photos in the Mail article.

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2017/mar/17/jailed-transgender-fell-runner-thought-uk-athletics-was-trying-to-kill-her

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4312594/Fell-runner-jailed-trying-murder-athletics-official.html

Is any of this fair on women? No, of course not. Women's athletics more than ever needs to be a protected category, protected from male intrusion. There is no point in running it as women the and used-to-be-male category. Those are not the same thing. Neither should it be run as the womens and XY males with hormonal problems category. Again, those are not the same thing.