Good mountain and hill runners- Help us coach the LetsRun.com Team at the World Cross Champs

wejo wrote:

I think my advice to Kelsey and Matt may be "you can't start too slow" the first lap.

Meaning DO start slow, or DON'T start slow?

impossible, or shouldn't? wrote:

wejo wrote:

I think my advice to Kelsey and Matt may be "you can't start too slow" the first lap.

Meaning DO start slow, or DON'T start slow?

I could see either one. On one hand, you've got to get out or you'll be stuck behind everyone on the narrow course. On the other hand, you've got to relax and wait for everyone else to come back to you.

I'd suggest the first option for the favorites, but the second for the underdogs. But I seriously don't know which one WeJo is suggesting.

Wejo, Depends on variable Running Economy. Some people are " better downhill runners" and some people are "better uphill runners"...so one should capitalize on their strengths! At this point it is too late to train for the specific demands of the course obviously so this is all about mental/pacing strategy and knowing one's own strengths and weaknesses (at least relative to the competition). It seems like it would be a disaster to go out way too fast in this type of race (much like it usually is in a marathon). A 10% grade hill is pretty significant in steepness....really changes the running form. If it is short (i.e less than 1/4 mile) they can still blast up it pretty hard...but of course the time "lost" on the uphill is most likely not going to be gained back on the downhill...not even close....it is a higher work output on a hilly course and a flood of lactate could be disaster in such a race if the hills are attacked too hard early on (things tend to "go exponential" in some mountain races). Then of course how smooth is the course in the different sections on race day?...with the loose dirt/rocks and/or mud and grass bits that is another factor that could really slow the overall paces down and cause more place changes near the end. These factors (as well as shoe choice) are all going to influence that variable running economy. Some people are just simply better in the mud.

wejo wrote:

This is by FAR the most difficult XC course I've ever seen.

Pictures don't do the course justice but it has massive hills and you do them 5 times each. One hill is a 10% grade. Our article on the course is here:

https://www.letsrun.com/news/2019/03/2019-world-xc-a-tour-of-the-toughest-cross-country-course-weve-ever-seen/

So the question becomes how to "attack" a course like this.

Is there any science that extra effort on a 10% grade isn't worth it as you won't gain as much time as if you pushed it on a downhill portion of course (or is this exactly backward).

We're looking for all the advice we can get from good hill and mountain runners.

I think my advice to Kelsey and Matt may be "you can't start too slow" the first lap.

The runners who train with hill sprints will have the advantage here on this course. Also runners who run their own race will have an advantage because they can feed off the Carnage on the last lap and pass people with gusto.

The winner will probably front run it, in the same style you see with fast ultra trail runners. You can have someone who suffers the best just grind away like Zach Miller. Not that he'd place here but someone with that mentality and raw power.

Why anyone would ever "blast" or "attack" a hill is beyond me.

Hank Moody wrote:

Why anyone would ever "blast" or "attack" a hill is beyond me.

While you don't want to go crazy on a hill, it is better to get up a steep shorter hill as quick as possible rather than trying to keep heartrate or effort the same as the rest of the race. If I "attack" a hill at 10 minute pace that takes me 90 seconds to get up, I can gain 45 seconds on a competitor who hiked up the hill at 15 mph. I can recover pretty quickly and the other runner won't have enough speed to catch me on the downhill portion especially if it is so steep that you have to "brake" while going down.

If you are running up and down rolling or gradual hills, then keeping the effort equal is most important to run the fastest time and stay ahead of your competitors.

It does help to practice blasting up steep hills to know how hard to push and how easy it is to recover.

One point to consider is if you are running up a hill and somebody else is hiking up the hill at the same speed, then he will be using less energy than you and you should probably be hiking too.

wejo wrote:

This is by FAR the most difficult XC course I've ever seen.

Pictures don't do the course justice but it has massive hills and you do them 5 times each. One hill is a 10% grade. Our article on the course is here:

https://www.letsrun.com/news/2019/03/2019-world-xc-a-tour-of-the-toughest-cross-country-course-weve-ever-seen/

So the question becomes how to "attack" a course like this.

Is there any science that extra effort on a 10% grade isn't worth it as you won't gain as much time as if you pushed it on a downhill portion of course (or is this exactly backward).

We're looking for all the advice we can get from good hill and mountain runners.

I think my advice to Kelsey and Matt may be "you can't start too slow" the first lap.

For these runners a 10% grade is very runnable. Guys going 4:50 pace should run 7:00 pace up the hill. My advice would be to keep the effort the same as the flat going up hill and open it up on the downhill because gravity will keep the heartrate low. The pace will seem too slow going up, but will easily be made up going back down. Of course they won't average as fast a pace if the course was flat.

My prediction of the winning time is

31:39

This is world xc. No one is frickin' hiking.

Tough question, and the truth could be dangerous in the hands of the opponent, but the high-percentage play is...

Maximum sustainable attack on the uphills. The mindset is: I rule the hills, punish the opponent.

Get your breath back on the downhill, allowing the opponent to waste energy speeding up (human physiology doesn’t really allow efficient downhill running).

Hit them with both barrels on the final climb & sprint to the finish. Feel free to collapse afterwards. Crew people, support the runner in the most upright position available. “Walk it off,” ideally.

After I read about the course, I was wondering why you Americans didn't bring some good up/down mountain runners ? ? joking.

I think this thread is related to the phenomenon of super fast and flat American trail and xc races. That's why you shouldn't have xc races or trials on pancake-flat courses. Hills and mud are what make cross country!

"Hiking" Ahahahahahah, lol.

Anyway, send Jim Walmsley to this race. Or, better yet, send Eric Senseman.

Bottom line, uphills work the heart, a human’s strongest muscle, with redundant systems & unusual flexibility. Downhills use the sprinting muscles, a major human weakness.

The best piece of advice I ever got in regards to hill running is to focus on a quick, efficient cadence when going up hills, to the point where you are shortening your stride a bit. This conserves your energy and reduces muscle fatigue a bit, and any time that was lost on the hill can be made up elsewhere on the course. There’s a difference between how you run hills in practice and how you should run them in races. In practice it’s about generating as much force as possible while adding the challenge of an incline to overload your legs. In a race you just want to make your way up the hill quick and efficient, because you’ve got other challenges ahead to navigate.

joalturn wrote:

The best piece of advice I ever got in regards to hill running is to focus on a quick, efficient cadence when going up hills, to the point where you are shortening your stride a bit.

^^^^^^ This is everything. Shorten your stride and go to the arms.

jesseriley wrote:

Get your breath back on the downhill, allowing the opponent to waste energy speeding up (human physiology doesn’t really allow efficient downhill running).

Umm, maybe, maybe not, but there will be huge differences in downhill ability between those good at it and those not good at it. On the steep downhills, like where someone above was talking about braking, I'm blasting it, sometimes going 2x the speed compared to poor descenders, while feeling in very good control, never at threat of biting it due to speed, and efficient for what it is.

I think it's very trainable, because I didn't consider myself that good at downhills when I was in my prime, but learned to do it really well in my 40s. Probably too late to coach the LR team, since the practice might make them sore just before the race, and I've figured it out for myself, but never tried to teach someone else. I first discovered how to it by really sprinting all out down something fairly steep, and somehow had a body position where that actually felt in control. Basically, by attacking the downhills super aggressively, I found a way to run downhills with even more control than when I used to brake and be tentative.

wejo wrote:

I think my advice to Kelsey and Matt may be "you can't start too slow" the first lap.

If Matt is from Maryland then he has run or at least heard of, Hereford's xc course.

I am so envious of these guys that they get to experience this race. Sounds a lot like Cinque Mulini's famed course -- with even more bells and whistles.

Be dumb, run like a horse.

Deer Sage- Thanks for the interesting post. Did you consider competing in the event? Teaming up with Coach Rojo again? Obviously you don't have the speed of the top competitors but would be interesting to see how things would shake out with your strength/experience in non-manicured conditions.