For most runners, is there anything actually wrong with Daniels?

Exactly, Its way too unnecessarily complicated. Its impossible to do, long term (for more than a week or two). I'm not sure what the science or rationale is behind all the voodoo.

johnnydj wrote:

Exactly, Its way too unnecessarily complicated. Its impossible to do, long term (for more than a week or two). I'm not sure what the science or rationale is behind all the voodoo.

Daniels is far from complicated. I want to see one valid argument here for why anybody thinks his training system is complicated. PLEASE post something.

I think his M pace workouts are difficult to impossible (well, counter-productive at least) for my physiology. That is my only complaint with Daniels.

LetsEatDoughnutsInstead wrote:

johnnydj wrote:

Exactly, Its way too unnecessarily complicated. Its impossible to do, long term (for more than a week or two). I'm not sure what the science or rationale is behind all the voodoo.

Daniels is far from complicated. I want to see one valid argument here for why anybody thinks his training system is complicated. PLEASE post something.

I think his M pace workouts are difficult to impossible (well, counter-productive at least) for my physiology. That is my only complaint with Daniels.

I’m guessing you’re at the faster end of M...

I’m at 6:45 pace and find them okay. I’m either just good at M (is that a thing) or I’m underperforming? You’re not the only one to state you find M workouts tough...

Snooze is right. I followed to the letter, and when first confronted with fatigue had to modify. So, now I make sure the purpose of the workout is met. I may drop 2 cruise intervals and do a few more minutes easy, or break up the M portion etc. It isn’t complicated.

Things don`t have to be complicated with Daniels formula. And M pace is absolutely some pace you don`t have to

incorporate. You can just leave it outside your program.It`s not necessary. All you need to succeed is maxVO2-pace, lactate threshold pace (LT) and your most effective aerobic power pace at your steady distance running. Thats it!

In fact Eliud Kipchoge and Kamworor also do the maxVO2-intervals and LT- cruise intervals, but they are not immediately

aware that this is the case.

EZ10Miler wrote:

Now I can see how a lot of runners would really get into the weeds worrying about those alphabet paces he has, but then runners do tend to be a nerdy lot and prone to over thinking every aspect of the endeavor.

This is the issue that apologists like Smoove don’t recognize. The Daniels admonition to adjust a workout or the pace based on how you are feeling runs contrary to human nature. You don’t need a degree in psychology to understand that type A personalities (which most runners are) are more likely to push through discomfort than listen to their bodies when it tells them to back off.

you'remakingitalltoohard wrote:

sub_3_is_the_goal wrote:

My only problems with Daniels are pretty superficial. I find the workouts to be a little complex and annoying (4E + 2T + 4M + 4E + 2T etc. etc.). Who can remember all that? I also find the marathon programs too hard. He has you doing workouts that seem almost impossible to this sub-3 target guy.

Just go and read Cerruty's books.

You are all making it too complicated. Work towards fitness. Run run run. Just keep running. Body weigth strengthening. Efficient technique.

Go Paleo Training.

ahh the reactionary response. .. if i dont understand then its too complicated, ignore science go by feel! that why the best marathoner in the world is running barefoot and doing the summer of malmo.... but yes it is too cookie cutter to work for everyone, but also cookie cutters are used because they work for the majority.

too hot wrote:

EZ10Miler wrote:

Now I can see how a lot of runners would really get into the weeds worrying about those alphabet paces he has, but then runners do tend to be a nerdy lot and prone to over thinking every aspect of the endeavor.

This is the issue that apologists like Smoove don’t recognize. The Daniels admonition to adjust a workout or the pace based on how you are feeling runs contrary to human nature. You don’t need a degree in psychology to understand that type A personalities (which most runners are) are more likely to push through discomfort than listen to their bodies when it tells them to back off.

So you're saying the problem is that because some runners are too stubborn to listen to what the program says about adjusting to feel, the program is flawed? Sounds more like the runners are over doing it. Overtraining will be a problem for those runners in any system.

----

Speaking of over thinking things...

Overtraining is something I worry about a fair amount. I'm in my mid 30s and 2 years back into running from an 8 year hiatus and was recently looking for something structured with a sense of rational organization. Without a system or plan I'd go out to run, start slow and inevitably end up running faster and faster throughout my runs, finishing at or near a tempo/threshold pace. That's fine for getting back in shape, but unlikely to lead to me running 'my best' whatever that turns out to be. I also had no rationale for how long or fast I should be running, other than I knew I shouldn't run the same route/distance/pace every day. None of my workouts from college had any practical or theoretical value to my current efforts.

I'm trying to go from 'just running' to actually training and seeing what I'm capable of now that I'm older and in a second life as a runner. I share the question of the OP, with regard to myself. I'd say I tend more to FT than ST. I ran a 1:18 half in the spring mostly on 'just running' an average of 30 mpw with one short hard run a week (no faster than 6min pace) and one long run a week, maybe four interval workouts for the whole cycle, with the rest all 'feel' runs that would start at 7:30-8 and ended up around 6:15 pace. Can I run sub 3 for a full? I'd say yes based on my half, but how fast can I get without totally over doing it? Is figuring out 'how fast?' possible without some sort of system? Is it even something I should be trying for with my first marathon?

Looking for something more than just the 'finish your first marathon plan', I did buy one of the 'customized' marathon plans based off my half-marathon race result. I gave them my training history and recent race results and they gave me a plan to run 2:45 on 50-65 mpw. Like others, I follow the workouts by intent and not by hard rule. I adjust the schedule to fit my life schedule. If I miss a day because life got crazy, I was traveling or I wasn't feeling it, I don't fret. I adjust the number of intervals/reps/whatever 'to feel' if my form starts to suffer or I fall significantly off pace. Training alone, I value having a pace to target and a duration to target it. That gives me something to push toward and a reason to continue pushing. Also, having a general structure to runs is nice, even if it's just a guide. I've often taken the approach of 'see how far I can get through the workout' which most of the time is the whole way, sometimes not. I don't get bent out of shape, mentally or physically if I have to make adjustments.

I would say some of the workouts looked aggressive in my plan when I started. Now that I'm there, I am able to do them without feeling overtaxed. I don't struggle to remember complicated interval sets or combinations of paces. It's really not that hard, worst case I can program the workout into my watch. I'm definitely training significantly faster on my fast days than I was before, yet not feeling worn out. (would this have been the case in any other training system? I don't know) I view the dictated 'easy' paces as "Don't go faster than this, because your body won't recover." This is something I continue to have trouble with since I enjoy the feel of running faster. Also it's a tendency that's hard for me to avoid when I'm out alone with no one to talk with and use the 'conversational pace' test. I tend to zone out, only to realize I'm cruising at 6:30 pace with a heart rate that indicates that's not as 'easy' as I should be taking it. Realistically my easy pace is 7:30 or slower, though yes, it varies based on how I feel.

I'm going to see how this cycle turns out (race is in 2 weeks) before I decide if I'm going to stick with Daniels type plans in the future, try something different or think about finding a coach if I my performance indicates I can aim for something faster/more competitive.

too cold wrote:

So you're saying the problem is that because some runners are too stubborn to listen to what the program says about adjusting to feel, the program is flawed? Sounds more like the runners are over doing it. Overtraining will be a problem for those runners in any system.

.

Nope. Any system that does not take into account human psychology is an incomplete system. The perceived effort approach is not a just go out and run approach. It requires a high level of mindfulness. Don’t be so quick to dismiss it.

My high school coach was a Daniel’s fanatic and taught me tone the same, then my college coach was a Seb Coe fan.. I have to say I probably had better results under Daniels. Now a days 15 years later I probably just run junk pace miles, go out and run by feel for about 1.5-2 miles a day, much more enjoyable and don’t get burned out..

I’ve read his book several times through, and used his pacing tables to train many runners with much success (multiple state qualifiers/medalists). I find that the pacing tables can be spot on. I’ve had track athletes hit times right across the board on their VDOT. To the point that we knew what their 3k next week was going to be based on the 1500 they ran last week.

That being said his workout programs are a little too perfect. Seems they were written to be done on a treadmill. I use the VDOT tables and steal a workout once in a while to change things up for my athletes, but that is it.

I’ve always has issues with Daniels coaching based upon his actual CURRENT results. He has been at Wells College for about ten years. When he was hired there was all this hype about how long before he built a dynasty it’s now close to a decade and I don’t think he has had a men’s team under 30:00 for the 8 k or a ladies team under 20:00. He always goes to the NCAA Regionals and seldom if ever beats more than a team or two. I realize this is going counter to a well respected mad, but these are facts

Really interesting point, although Wikipedia says he's been at Wells for 5 years not 10. He was at SUNY Cortland for a lot longer and at a more important point in his career, so it would be revealing to see how they did from 1996-2013. His Wikipedia page suggests they did well, but a plot of actual performance over time would be interesting.

Old runner/coach wrote:

I’ve always has issues with Daniels coaching based upon his actual CURRENT results. He has been at Wells College for about ten years. When he was hired there was all this hype about how long before he built a dynasty it’s now close to a decade and I don’t think he has had a men’s team under 30:00 for the 8 k or a ladies team under 20:00. He always goes to the NCAA Regionals and seldom if ever beats more than a team or two. I realize this is going counter to a well respected mad, but these are facts

Let's not forget how much more goes into being a collegiate coach besides building training plans. He may be good at building plans but terrible at recruiting. Who knows.

I was at SUNY Albany while he was at SUNY Cortland. His men's teams were decent, his women's teams were very good. Both suffered from the same challenge - a lack of depth after a few very good front runners. Don't know if that is a recruiting issue, the related issue of SUNY Cortland having limited appeal, or if there was something else going on. I will say my college coach applied Daniels principles, and when he got quality talent, they produced at the D3 level with my team having multiple D3 All Americans, and 5 middle distance and distance guys who were D3 national champs or runners up on the track. or third place at cross country while I was there. In interest of full disclosure, some of those guys were actually D1 talent (Penn and Florida guys who transferred back to their home area school)

Sorry about my ballpark guess on how long he has been at Wells. Yes coaching is much more than just drawing up a program and recruiting is very important. Are there any former Cortland athletes on this board that could potentially give a first hand account of him as a coach. A few of my running partners were at Cortland when he was there and they all agree that only the ladies team mattered- much like the responded from Albany said. We see the same thing from the Saratoga team.The Kranics have very limited success with the males when compared to the females. It would be great if a former Daniels coached athlete could add insight.

I meant to add that Coach Lynch from RPI has been around only a few years longer with a much higher success rate. They have been to the nationals more often than not.