1500m WR is now 20 years old!

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5 years ago 07/19/2018 7:02am EDT

re: Scrotevett

Scrotevett wrote:
Doped to the Max wrote:
I don't know...but it doesn't look good for Morroco.
The top 6 all-time fastest Morrocan 1500 runners:
1. El Guerrouj (3:26.00/1998)
2. Iguider (3:28.79/2015)
3. Ramzi (3:29.14/2006) CERA positive (IC/2008)
4. Aouita (3:29.46/1985)
5. Laâlou (3:29.53/2010) M.agent positive (PC/2012) & EPO positive (OOC/2016)
6. Kaouch (3:31.10/2006) EPO positive (IC/2007)
Aouita is very suspicious and a likely doper, IMO. Iguider, though his time was posted at Monoco, is running more than a half a second faster than confirmed doper Ramzi. El G ran all three of his WRs in the EPO-era time frame where one could dope with impunity. Also, his biggest performance jump on his career profile was a 3 second increase in 2 yrs from 3:29.05 in 96 to the WR of 3:26.00 in 98 (~1.4%).
That's 3 out of their 6 fastest ever 1500 guys busted for EPO. And unless anyone believes in a 100% detection rate for anti-doping, these are just the guys that got caught.
Excellent, you’ve established the possibility of guilt. Now, can you establish guilt? Otherwise, I’m not sure what you expect to learn from this.

That maybe doping is the normal preparation for a Morrocan runner? Lol. Do you really think the other 3 guys are clean? C'mon now...3 out of top their 6 all time fastest busted for rocket fuel with one a 2 time loser and there's nothing to see there. Got it rekrunner. ?

5 years ago 07/19/2018 7:08am EDT

re: Doped to the Max

Doped to the Max wrote:
Scrotevett wrote:
Excellent, you’ve established the possibility of guilt. Now, can you establish guilt? Otherwise, I’m not sure what you expect to learn from this.
That maybe doping is the normal preparation for a Morrocan runner? Lol. Do you really think the other 3 guys are clean? C'mon now...3 out of top their 6 all time fastest busted for rocket fuel with one a 2 time loser and there's nothing to see there. Got it rekrunner. ?

That’s interesting speculation. Says a lot about you.

5 years ago 07/19/2018 7:40am EDT

re: Scrotevett

Today (Thursday 19th July) is the third anniversary of Nick Willis setting the clean world record of 3:39.66. Crammy had held it for almost exactly 30 years.

Sorry Nick, but your record isn't going to last as long - my money is on Jakob running 3:28 at Monaco in 2020.

3:26 if Tim and the Manangoi brothers agree to pace him.

5 years ago 07/19/2018 7:40am EDT

re: Coevett

5 years ago 07/19/2018 7:50am EDT

re: Coevett

Coevett wrote:
Today (Thursday 19th July) is the third anniversary of Nick Willis setting the clean world record of 3:39.66. Crammy had held it for almost exactly 30 years.
Sorry Nick, but your record isn't going to last as long - my money is on Jakob running 3:28 at Monaco in 2020.
3:26 if Tim and the Manangoi brothers agree to pace him.

His PR is 3:36.

5 years ago 07/19/2018 7:59am EDT

re: Coevett

Coevett wrote:
ex-runner wrote:
You keep misunderstanding my points. I don't think there is any particular evidence that Coe doped. You and others were the ones bringing up multiple races in a short period as evidence of doping. I don't think it is, personally. I think it's a weak argument. Snell is another one that reinforces my point, along with Rono and Coe.
And watch El G at the end here, he can barely stand, lies flat on his back and his face is in a full grimace
https://youtu.be/6fFAU3B31cc
Compare to Alan Webb here who immediately runs around celebrating without a break. At around 4:40.
https://youtu.be/7aTRTvo2ouo
Looks can be deceiving in my view. Amos is absolutely wiped out after his 800m Olympic silver, he was actually carried off on a stretcher and went to hospital but I'd bet my house he doped.
It really annoys me at the magic powers people give to PEDs. They do what they do, improve endurance or strength or reaction speeds etc.
They don't remove the fatigue process entirely otherwise guys would have run 3:00 for 1500m or whatever the mechanical limit of the human body is. They don't allow athletes to drop 10 seconds in a few weeks over the 1500m unless that runners PB was 5:00. They don't give athletes perfect running form or a beautiful stride. Sumgong used to look like shite.
EPO very simply improves the transport of oxygen.
It must be understood that El Guerrouj was an extremely talented runner, physiologically and biomechanically perfect for middle distance running, had a beautiful efficient stride, extremely hard working, full 24/7 lifetime dedication to training living in the Atlas mountains not like these kids playing fortnite on Instagram and then he probably had the wonder of EPO on top.
That's why I feel that 3:26 is out of reach for pretty much anyone when clean.
You've just said that El G 'probably had the wonder of EPO on top' AND 'I don't think there is any particular evidence that Coe doped'.
So now you think El G doped and Coe didn't, but we're racists for thinking the same?
Also, as Deano said, looking at the way El G acted after his 1500 WR, he lies on the track because he's stunned he ran so fast. He doesn't 'need to be helped up', he was simply pulled up. He doesn't look even slightly out of breath, and seconds after he's lifting his own coach off the ground and then almost sprinting his victory lap.
He kissed the track because he was giving thanks to the EPO God for making it possible.

I told you you are unlikely to have deciphered my true feelings around doping in athletics from my posts. Don't try to hurt your brain working it out.

El G is clearly tired after that run you can see it in his face when he's helped up. No point denying it everyone can see the video. If he wasn't tired he'd have run 3:25. There is no argument around him being tired he obviously is, every human is when they run to their maximum no matter what level. As I said about Amos, he was actually hospitalised after 1:41.7 but I'd bet my house he doped. Note I don't think Rudisha doped. EPO does not make you immune to fatigue that's a ridiculous notion.

I don't think El G is more likely to have doped than Coe because El G is Moroccan. I think he is more likely to have doped because 4:43. The most ridiculous run of all time in my opinion. 3:49 mile followed by 400m at 1500m WR pace. It's akin to FloJos sprint records. Also EPO powerfully improves performances at and around VO2max which were El Gs forte. Also a training partner using PEDs makes guilt by direct association (not by association of skin colour or nationality) more likely.

Similarly, Aden's athletes are likely to have been doping with the stories of 'vitamin injections' and Dibaba's 3:50 in which she had awful pacemaking but still easily broke the turtle soup record and the more importantly the Sabadell bust. Not because they are Ethiopian or something.

I also know for certain Coe didn't use EPO of course. I did once get told one slightly cryptic message about Coe from someone close to him at the time but to reveal it might risk revealing personal details about myself and could harm the career of the person. I'd say with a strong certainty that Coe never broke any rules anyway.

Most of my arguments here thus far have simply been surrounding the false notion that Africans are dopers because they are African and Whites are not dopers because they are too rituous for that. It's nonsense. Rugby and cycling firmly put that theory to bed. I'd view Asbel Kiprop's training partners with suspicion but not every Kenyan. It's baseless.

5 years ago 07/19/2018 8:09am EDT

re: ex-runner

The problem for him is that localized, reasonable suspicion doesn’t allow him to explain away all times and anoint Cram the ‘clean WR holder’. Using the ‘culture of doping’ allows him to do so, despite the obvious racism of it.

5 years ago 07/19/2018 8:10am EDT

re: Coevett

Coevett wrote:
Today (Thursday 19th July) is the third anniversary of Nick Willis setting the clean world record of 3:39.66. Crammy had held it for almost exactly 30 years.
Sorry Nick, but your record isn't going to last as long - my money is on Jakob running 3:28 at Monaco in 2020.
3:26 if Tim and the Manangoi brothers agree to pace him.

This is exactly what I'm talking about.

Why is Nick clean? Why is Jakob clean? You do realise the best Ingerbrigtsen had suspicious blood values in the fancy bears leak much like Farah? You do realise their father is like a slave driver and they submit to his ultimate rule? Anything dodgy that one is doing the others are doing.

There's as much evidence against Makhloufi as there is Willis or Kwemoi or Baala. What's wrong with Niyongabo in your view? Where is Burundi's 'culture of doping'?

There are 25 names above Willis and you believe they are all doping without specific evidence against half of them. The only thing they have in common is they aren't white.

Some I'll agree were obviously doping, most notably Ramzi and Kiprop. But some I fundamentally don't agree with and I strongly believe there is no evidence against them whatsoever.

5 years ago 07/19/2018 9:14am EDT

re: ex-runner

ex-runner wrote:
You keep misunderstanding my points. I don't think there is any particular evidence that Coe doped. You and others were the ones bringing up multiple races in a short period as evidence of doping. I don't think it is, personally. I think it's a weak argument. Snell is another one that reinforces my point, along with Rono and Coe.
And watch El G at the end here, he can barely stand, lies flat on his back and his face is in a full grimace
https://youtu.be/6fFAU3B31cc
Compare to Alan Webb here who immediately runs around celebrating without a break. At around 4:40.
https://youtu.be/7aTRTvo2ouo
Looks can be deceiving in my view. Amos is absolutely wiped out after his 800m Olympic silver, he was actually carried off on a stretcher and went to hospital but I'd bet my house he doped.
It really annoys me at the magic powers people give to PEDs. They do what they do, improve endurance or strength or reaction speeds etc.
They don't remove the fatigue process entirely otherwise guys would have run 3:00 for 1500m or whatever the mechanical limit of the human body is. They don't allow athletes to drop 10 seconds in a few weeks over the 1500m unless that runners PB was 5:00. They don't give athletes perfect running form or a beautiful stride. Sumgong used to look like shite.
EPO very simply improves the transport of oxygen.
It must be understood that El Guerrouj was an extremely talented runner, physiologically and biomechanically perfect for middle distance running, had a beautiful efficient stride, extremely hard working, full 24/7 lifetime dedication to training living in the Atlas mountains not like these kids playing fortnite on Instagram and then he probably had the wonder of EPO on top.
That's why I feel that 3:26 is out of reach for pretty much anyone when clean.

Ramzi full throttle doping with high-octane CERA at Beijing!

Blows apart a world class field comprised of Kiprop!...Choge!...Baala!...Willis!

Not one bit fatigue as he crosses the line and immediately kneels down for worship as the others are completely toasted with Baala collapsing!

https://youtu.be/0HcGVbDLhI8

Boulimi full throttle doping at Zurich when he set the WR beating his old WR by over 2 seconds!

16 yrs later the record still stands!

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/athletics/3285115.stm

5 years ago 07/19/2018 9:35am EDT

re: ex-runner

ex-runner wrote:
You keep misunderstanding my points. I don't think there is any particular evidence that Coe doped. You and others were the ones bringing up multiple races in a short period as evidence of doping. I don't think it is, personally. I think it's a weak argument. Snell is another one that reinforces my point, along with Rono and Coe.
And watch El G at the end here, he can barely stand, lies flat on his back and his face is in a full grimace
Compare to Alan Webb here who immediately runs around celebrating without a break. At around 4:40.
Looks can be deceiving in my view. Amos is absolutely wiped out after his 800m Olympic silver, he was actually carried off on a stretcher and went to hospital but I'd bet my house he doped.
It really annoys me at the magic powers people give to PEDs. They do what they do, improve endurance or strength or reaction speeds etc.
They don't remove the fatigue process entirely otherwise guys would have run 3:00 for 1500m or whatever the mechanical limit of the human body is. They don't allow athletes to drop 10 seconds in a few weeks over the 1500m unless that runners PB was 5:00. They don't give athletes perfect running form or a beautiful stride. Sumgong used to look like shite.
EPO very simply improves the transport of oxygen.

....and reduction in O2 deficit, improved time to exhaustion, decrease in submaximal heart rate, etc.

5 years ago 07/19/2018 9:38am EDT

re: Magic Potion

Magic Potion wrote:
ex-runner wrote:
You keep misunderstanding my points. I don't think there is any particular evidence that Coe doped. You and others were the ones bringing up multiple races in a short period as evidence of doping. I don't think it is, personally. I think it's a weak argument. Snell is another one that reinforces my point, along with Rono and Coe.
And watch El G at the end here, he can barely stand, lies flat on his back and his face is in a full grimace
Compare to Alan Webb here who immediately runs around celebrating without a break. At around 4:40.
Looks can be deceiving in my view. Amos is absolutely wiped out after his 800m Olympic silver, he was actually carried off on a stretcher and went to hospital but I'd bet my house he doped.
It really annoys me at the magic powers people give to PEDs. They do what they do, improve endurance or strength or reaction speeds etc.
They don't remove the fatigue process entirely otherwise guys would have run 3:00 for 1500m or whatever the mechanical limit of the human body is. They don't allow athletes to drop 10 seconds in a few weeks over the 1500m unless that runners PB was 5:00. They don't give athletes perfect running form or a beautiful stride. Sumgong used to look like shite.
EPO very simply improves the transport of oxygen.
....and reduction in O2 deficit, improved time to exhaustion, decrease in submaximal heart rate, etc.

Aren’t those just the results of improved transport of oxygen? What’s your point?

5 years ago 07/19/2018 9:46am EDT

re: ex-runner

ex-runner wrote:
Coevett wrote:
Today (Thursday 19th July) is the third anniversary of Nick Willis setting the clean world record of 3:39.66. Crammy had held it for almost exactly 30 years.
Sorry Nick, but your record isn't going to last as long - my money is on Jakob running 3:28 at Monaco in 2020.
3:26 if Tim and the Manangoi brothers agree to pace him.
This is exactly what I'm talking about.
Why is Nick clean? Why is Jakob clean? You do realise the best Ingerbrigtsen had suspicious blood values in the fancy bears leak much like Farah? You do realise their father is like a slave driver and they submit to his ultimate rule? Anything dodgy that one is doing the others are doing.
There's as much evidence against Makhloufi as there is Willis or Kwemoi or Baala. What's wrong with Niyongabo in your view? Where is Burundi's 'culture of doping'?
There are 25 names above Willis and you believe they are all doping without specific evidence against half of them. The only thing they have in common is they aren't white.
Some I'll agree were obviously doping, most notably Ramzi and Kiprop. But some I fundamentally don't agree with and I strongly believe there is no evidence against them whatsoever.

Why Nick Wills is clean? He is so Christian that he doesn't even wack off to adult films anymore. Claims he's a former addict to beating his one eye snake. If, he can't even keep that to himself. How do except him to keep doping a secret?

5 years ago 07/19/2018 9:55am EDT

re: Full Throttle Doping

Full Throttle Doping wrote:
ex-runner wrote:
You keep misunderstanding my points. I don't think there is any particular evidence that Coe doped. You and others were the ones bringing up multiple races in a short period as evidence of doping. I don't think it is, personally. I think it's a weak argument. Snell is another one that reinforces my point, along with Rono and Coe.
And watch El G at the end here, he can barely stand, lies flat on his back and his face is in a full grimace
https://youtu.be/6fFAU3B31cc
Compare to Alan Webb here who immediately runs around celebrating without a break. At around 4:40.
https://youtu.be/7aTRTvo2ouo
Looks can be deceiving in my view. Amos is absolutely wiped out after his 800m Olympic silver, he was actually carried off on a stretcher and went to hospital but I'd bet my house he doped.
It really annoys me at the magic powers people give to PEDs. They do what they do, improve endurance or strength or reaction speeds etc.
They don't remove the fatigue process entirely otherwise guys would have run 3:00 for 1500m or whatever the mechanical limit of the human body is. They don't allow athletes to drop 10 seconds in a few weeks over the 1500m unless that runners PB was 5:00. They don't give athletes perfect running form or a beautiful stride. Sumgong used to look like shite.
EPO very simply improves the transport of oxygen.
It must be understood that El Guerrouj was an extremely talented runner, physiologically and biomechanically perfect for middle distance running, had a beautiful efficient stride, extremely hard working, full 24/7 lifetime dedication to training living in the Atlas mountains not like these kids playing fortnite on Instagram and then he probably had the wonder of EPO on top.
That's why I feel that 3:26 is out of reach for pretty much anyone when clean.
Ramzi full throttle doping with high-octane CERA at Beijing!
Blows apart a world class field comprised of Kiprop!...Choge!...Baala!...Willis!
Not one bit fatigue as he crosses the line and immediately kneels down for worship as the others are completely toasted with Baala collapsing!
https://youtu.be/0HcGVbDLhI8
Boulimi full throttle doping at Zurich when he set the WR beating his old WR by over 2 seconds!
16 yrs later the record still stands!
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/athletics/3285115.stm

If they don't fatigue then they would simply have run faster. Why didn't Ramzi run 3:24?

I can't believe I'm having to explain fatigue to people.

Please explain the role of EPO in the movement of calcium ions in muscles? Or H+ ions?

Explain why exercise not dependent on oxygen and therefore EPO is irrelevant such as sprinting has limits?

5 years ago 07/19/2018 9:55am EDT

re: Sand Dunes

Sand Dunes wrote:
ex-runner wrote:
This is exactly what I'm talking about.
Why is Nick clean? Why is Jakob clean? You do realise the best Ingerbrigtsen had suspicious blood values in the fancy bears leak much like Farah? You do realise their father is like a slave driver and they submit to his ultimate rule? Anything dodgy that one is doing the others are doing.
There's as much evidence against Makhloufi as there is Willis or Kwemoi or Baala. What's wrong with Niyongabo in your view? Where is Burundi's 'culture of doping'?
There are 25 names above Willis and you believe they are all doping without specific evidence against half of them. The only thing they have in common is they aren't white.
Some I'll agree were obviously doping, most notably Ramzi and Kiprop. But some I fundamentally don't agree with and I strongly believe there is no evidence against them whatsoever.
Why Nick Wills is clean? He is so Christian that he doesn't even wack off to adult films anymore. Claims he's a former addict to beating his one eye snake. If, he can't even keep that to himself. How do except him to keep doping a secret?

Because these are totally different secrets with totally different consequences. One is reputational, one is occupational. Your false comparison is an invalid argument.

5 years ago 07/19/2018 9:56am EDT

re: Sand Dunes

Sand Dunes wrote:
Why Nick Wills is clean? He is so Christian that he doesn't even wack off to adult films anymore. Claims he's a former addict to beating his one eye snake. If, he can't even keep that to himself. How do except him to keep doping a secret?

^this! Obviously must be clean.

5 years ago 07/19/2018 10:00am EDT

re: Scrotevett

Scrotevett wrote:
Sand Dunes wrote:
Why Nick Wills is clean? He is so Christian that he doesn't even wack off to adult films anymore. Claims he's a former addict to beating his one eye snake. If, he can't even keep that to himself. How do except him to keep doping a secret?
Because these are totally different secrets with totally different consequences. One is reputational, one is occupational. Your false comparison is an invalid argument.

I think he was joking anyway

5 years ago 07/19/2018 11:31am EDT

re: kj

kj wrote:
El Guerrouj did not run as fast as Sebastian Coe over 800m because it has been scientifically proven (ref. Wurst, 1972) that STEROIDS directly improve performance at a greater rate at 800m than 1500m.
It is well known Coe could have done steroids in the steroids era (1980s) in addition to his alleged blood transfusions.

There are only 3 words in your post that have any worth: ‘could have’ and ‘alleged’. And those 3 words perfectly highlight the fact that there is no evidence and therefore no argument.

5 years ago 07/19/2018 11:36am EDT

re: Deanouk

Deanouk wrote:
kj wrote:
El Guerrouj did not run as fast as Sebastian Coe over 800m because it has been scientifically proven (ref. Wurst, 1972) that STEROIDS directly improve performance at a greater rate at 800m than 1500m.
It is well known Coe could have done steroids in the steroids era (1980s) in addition to his alleged blood transfusions.
There are only 3 words in your post that have any worth: ‘could have’ and ‘alleged’. And those 3 words perfectly highlight the fact that there is no evidence and therefore no argument.

You’re absolutely correct. So I’m sure you’ll unbiasedly apply the same logic to El G, right?

5 years ago 07/19/2018 11:59am EDT

re: nopornwillis

well i think it was cause he got caught peeling it back to some weird sh*t by his wife....otherwise i think he would have kept it from her for life....like maybe gay midget porn or fat interracial bondage tranny porn.....it was something very very brutal. i dont think she caught him fapping to good ol regular run of the mill porn, nope this had to be some sh*t that made her disgusted and worried. thus he gets help for his addiction and all that.

say he is doping...would she know? i would think not, i would imagine if he was doping it is very much under wraps

but i honestly do think he is clean, and stop using his monaco PR as truth....he is a 3:32 guy at best at anywhere besides monacno, monaco is short.

i have already shown over and over and over and over that monaco since 2010 "resurfacing" gives people a 2-3 second boost to their 1500. nothing else is an outlier there so that means the start and finish lines are off.

5 years ago 07/19/2018 12:09pm EDT

re: m!ndweak

m!ndweak wrote:
well i think it was cause he got caught peeling it back to some weird sh*t by his wife....otherwise i think he would have kept it from her for life....like maybe gay midget porn or fat interracial bondage tranny porn.....it was something very very brutal. i dont think she caught him fapping to good ol regular run of the mill porn, nope this had to be some sh*t that made her disgusted and worried. thus he gets help for his addiction and all that.
say he is doping...would she know? i would think not, i would imagine if he was doping it is very much under wraps
but i honestly do think he is clean, and stop using his monaco PR as truth....he is a 3:32 guy at best at anywhere besides monacno, monaco is short.
i have already shown over and over and over and over that monaco since 2010 "resurfacing" gives people a 2-3 second boost to their 1500. nothing else is an outlier there so that means the start and finish lines are off.

Wouldn’t consistently good pacing and a good surface be more obviously responsible? Good pacing alone would seem to be able to slice a few seconds, right?

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