Ken Stone has some great reporting in the San Diego Tribune.
The biggest revelation is that Max Siegel has promised Mt. Sac the 2021 USATF Champs. This was after USATF pulled the 2020 Olympic Trials from Mt. Sac.
The article also has a detailed memo from Mt. Sac that alleges they told USATF a) one lawsuit had been dismissed b) even if they lost the other lawsuit on funding of the stadium construction there were alternative sources of funding. From Mt. Sac's perspective they thought everything was on track, yet USATF officials showed up at some of the court hearings and limited any small talk and then soon after cancelled the Olympic Trials.
To top it all off it turns out USATF had not actually signed the Olympic Trials contract so technically it couldn't be enforced which was good for Mt. Sac because they could get all the money they paid back without having to fight USATF.
The article links to the memo which has the full undredacted contract between USATF and Mt. Sac for the Trials. It shows the expenses involved.
Costs of hosting Trials: $3 million in cash to USATF ($500,000 fee + $1.25 million prize money + $1.25 million athlete support) + all the costs of putting on the event (personnel, insurance, per diem for USTAF officials, cars for USATF, etc)
Mt Sac keeps all the ticketing revenue and gives USATF 17% of any local sponsorships it gets.
The article is here.
https://timesofsandiego.com/sports/2018/06/11/usatf-ceo-promised-mt-sac-the-2021-world-track-field-trials-memo-says/
Memo here: https://timesofsandiego.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/MtSAC-USATF-chronology.pdf
Wow: USATF CEO Max Siegel has promised Mt. Sac 2021 USATF Champs + USATF-Mt. Sac Olympic Trials Contract Released
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Any word if the deal is standard?
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So aside from the obvious issues related to casually promising a National Championships to a group with no bidding/transparency, the HUGE issue here is that we are hosting the World Champs at the new Hayward Field in 2021 and most athletes would like to compete on the World Champs track prior to the meet.
I know a lot of people are assuming 2020 will be in Eugene, but even if it is, I don't think all of the construction will be done, there would probably be more that would happen between 2020 and 2021. And even if everything is the same, you still want more practice, more experience at the same facility. It is all going to be very different in 2021.
The idea that USAs would even be considered for anywhere besides Oregon in 2021 is really mind boggling. -
tartarm wrote:
Any word if the deal is standard?
No this deal isn't standard. Cancelling the Trials with no notice is not standard. The guys at Mt. Sac were surprised by the offer of 2021.
update: when I say no notice I should have said "proper notice" as it's clear USATF had problems with the bid in October 2017, but after that date, a November cancellation date came and passed, and then USATF sent a contract for Mt. Sac to sign to host the Trials in January and then according to Mt. Sac never said anything about cancellation after that
It might be standard to negotiate something like this, "we don't think you're going to be ready for 2020, how about we cancel the Trials and give you 2021 instead."
Cancelling 2020 with no notice and then unilaterally awarding 2021 is not standard operating procedure.
I deleted a post saying "It was clear" a bribe had been taken. The more specific an allegation is the more I feel it should be backed up.
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My assumption is the plan is to award the 2020 Olympic Trails to Eugene.
If you're building the new Eugene stadium and it's going to be ready by 2020, you'd rather have the Trials in 2020 and the Worlds in 2021 than the USATF champs in 2021 and the Worlds in 2021. If Eugene isn't ready by 2020, then this will turn into a really bad decision because Mt. Sac is on schedule according to their people. -
LetsRun.com wrote:
No this deal isn't standard. Cancelling the Trials with no notice is not standard.
Except that's reportedly not what happened:
https://timesofsandiego.com/sports/2018/05/12/usatf-warned-mt-sac-on-olympic-trials-6-months-before-reopening-bids/ -
another runner wrote:
LetsRun.com wrote:
No this deal isn't standard. Cancelling the Trials with no notice is not standard.
Except that's reportedly not what happened:
https://timesofsandiego.com/sports/2018/05/12/usatf-warned-mt-sac-on-olympic-trials-6-months-before-reopening-bids/
When I said, cancel "with no notice" I should have phrased better because what I really meant was "cancel with no notice in the immediate time period (2018)" because it is clear if you read the memo USATF did give notice in October that they needed more things from Mt. Sac or they'd reopen the Trials bad. Adam Schmenk wrote in October " We look forward to receiving your plans by November 17. Should you be unable to provide the above assurance by November 17, we will reopen the bid process to secure a host city who can provide the commitments necessary to host a successful Olympic Trials."
Once that happened, November 17th passed.
Then USATF sent a contract for Mt. Sac to host the Trials on January 16th that Mt. Sac signed. This is after Mt. Sac says they had a phone call and follow up letter with USATF.
So in my book if in October you express concerns and give a cancellation date of November 17th, but then talk with the other party and send them a contract that they sign and then never after discuss you're about to cancel, that to me is what I mean with cancelling "with no notice" although it could be phrased better. I should have said "proper notice".
Also for legal minds, Mt. Sac made it sound like USATF could cancel for any reason. Is that the case? I didn't see that in the contract. Turns out USATF never signed the contract which is comical on both sides (USATF for not signing and/or conveying that to Mt. Sac and Mt. Sac for not realizing it hasn't been signed).
So could USATF cancel for any reason since it wasn't signed or do they have to cite some breach? -
dirty game. 1 dec 2017 place lannna on 'phony' suspension 2 jun 2018 give mt sac's OT to uo (3 then now what? dec 2018 at usatf conv reinstate lannana)
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wejo wrote:
If you're building the new Eugene stadium and it's going to be ready by 2020, you'd rather have the Trials in 2020 and the Worlds in 2021 than the USATF champs in 2021 and the Worlds in 2021. If Eugene isn't ready by 2020, then this will turn into a really bad decision because Mt. Sac is on schedule according to their people.
I think a lot of athletes would disagree with you on that.
Most athletes seemed to be pretty strongly in favor of the 2020 Trials at Mt SAC, mainly because they are tired of going to Eugene, but I think some also recognize that with the 2028 Olympics coming, it is good to try and build a fan base in the LA area.
Eugene's original plan would have had the stadium mostly finished by 2020. When they did not win the Trials, things were pushed back. So yes, they say they can have a functional stadium in time for 2020, but it will be LESS ready and less finished that it would have been had they won the original bid.
As far as 2021 USAs, I guarantee most athletes will want to be on the World Champs track, especially since it won't be totally done in 2020 even IF they are somehow awarded the Olympic Trials.
It is a big advantage as an athlete to get to compete on the World Champs track before worlds. That's why they held USA Indoors so close to Worlds when we hosted World Indoors... the track would not be ready a week earlier.
Even though most athletes are familiar with Eugene today, the flow of things will be totally different in 2021. And even if they host Trials in 2020, it will change between 2020 and 2021. You want to get that experience under your belt coming in to Worlds. -
Wait! Am I reading this right? USATF does not pay for any of the athlete prize money or athlete support at a major event like the Olympic trials? The host pays it?
What the heck is USATF doing with all the money they are getting from Nike? -
Lining their pockets
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True, they definitely should have given them a final warning notice.
I personally would prefer the trials to be in Eugene. I am a casual fan and the trials are the only track event I travel for so I only go to Eugene every 4 years. It is also fun to spend some extra days running trails in Bend while I'm out there. -
polevaultpower wrote:
wejo wrote:
If you're building the new Eugene stadium and it's going to be ready by 2020, you'd rather have the Trials in 2020 and the Worlds in 2021 than the USATF champs in 2021 and the Worlds in 2021. If Eugene isn't ready by 2020, then this will turn into a really bad decision because Mt. Sac is on schedule according to their people.
I think a lot of athletes would disagree with you on that.
Most athletes seemed to be pretty strongly in favor of the 2020 Trials at Mt SAC, mainly because they are tired of going to Eugene, but I think some also recognize that with the 2028 Olympics coming, it is good to try and build a fan base in the LA area.
Eugene's original plan would have had the stadium mostly finished by 2020. When they did not win the Trials, things were pushed back. So yes, they say they can have a functional stadium in time for 2020, but it will be LESS ready and less finished that it would have been had they won the original bid.
As far as 2021 USAs, I guarantee most athletes will want to be on the World Champs track, especially since it won't be totally done in 2020 even IF they are somehow awarded the Olympic Trials.
It is a big advantage as an athlete to get to compete on the World Champs track before worlds. That's why they held USA Indoors so close to Worlds when we hosted World Indoors... the track would not be ready a week earlier.
Even though most athletes are familiar with Eugene today, the flow of things will be totally different in 2021. And even if they host Trials in 2020, it will change between 2020 and 2021. You want to get that experience under your belt coming in to Worlds.
That's #SortaRight. I've been to L.A. a million times already too since my parents took us along to RnR, LAM, Dana Point M when I and siblings were kids, Then to Arcadia, Woodward, Buchannan, Mammoth XC Camp, LB Relays, Mt Sac XC , Footlocker, ad nasuem. So if your'e into XC, T, throws chances are youv'e been to L.A. a million times by the time you reach 16 years of age. However!!!!!! L.A. is so effing huge you can spend decades and decades and only scratch the surface. I still never been to Vegas, Grand Canyon, Mojave, Channel Islands, Salton Sea, etc. -
Lol, just when you think USATF could not be more ridiculous, stuff like this comes out. Backroom offers and hold the World Trials at a location other than the place where the World Champs will occur? Are they just stupid?
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vivalarepublica wrote:
Lol, just when you think USATF could not be more ridiculous, stuff like this comes out. Backroom offers and hold the World Trials at a location other than the place where the World Champs will occur? Are they just stupid?
I think they should have it in a different location. Do you think fans in Eugene like having to shell out big bucks for Pre, NCAAs, USAs and Worlds? Do you think agents/coaches like going to the same place 5 times a year.
I don't want to hear how athletes need to get used to the stadium. Please. This isn't basketball. -
rojo wrote:
vivalarepublica wrote:
Lol, just when you think USATF could not be more ridiculous, stuff like this comes out. Backroom offers and hold the World Trials at a location other than the place where the World Champs will occur? Are they just stupid?
I think they should have it in a different location. Do you think fans in Eugene like having to shell out big bucks for Pre, NCAAs, USAs and Worlds? Do you think agents/coaches like going to the same place 5 times a year.
I don't want to hear how athletes need to get used to the stadium. Please. This isn't basketball.
I don't understand the point you're trying to make about the "fans in Eugene," who are strictly better off the more high quality meets they have access to in their backyard. They can choose to purchase tickets to whichever they want of the meets you listed.
Who really suffers? Fans outside Eugene, of course. If they want to see it live, plane ticket $$ in addition to the meet tickets... and let's not get started on streaming options... -
rojo wrote:
vivalarepublica wrote:
Lol, just when you think USATF could not be more ridiculous, stuff like this comes out. Backroom offers and hold the World Trials at a location other than the place where the World Champs will occur? Are they just stupid?
I think they should have it in a different location. Do you think fans in Eugene like having to shell out big bucks for Pre, NCAAs, USAs and Worlds? Do you think agents/coaches like going to the same place 5 times a year.
I don't want to hear how athletes need to get used to the stadium. Please. This isn't basketball.
You make a very good point. You can't do anything about Pre, but they need to have NCAA's and USA's is other locations. Including Drake, Mt. Sac, and Icahn Stadium. Those are all in 4 different locations of the country and would be good for variety.
However, for 2021, this is a unique situation that we have worlds. I think having indoor nationals in 2016 at Portland helped a lot of our athletes do well for Worlds since they got to run on the track. I mean yes, the Portland track was new, and a lot of our world qualifiers will have ran at Hayward plenty of times, but not with the new model. In this case USA's in 2021 NEEDS to be at Hayward. If World is at Mt Sac in 2025, USA's needs to be at Mt. Sac. Any other year, lets keep USA's and NCAA's away from Hayward.
Sidenote: Austin, TX, terrible place to have NCAA's in the middle of June when it's 95 degrees. -
I’m for moving National meets out of Eugene more than in is too. I went to the last Olympic Trials, I had a great time, but the weather was miserable there. It rained most of the days. Also, Eugene has to be one of the harder towns to travel to and book a hotel at.
Mt Sac should have been the pick. It would have allowed the sport to grow a little more being somewhat close to LA. I think more youth and a more diverse crowd would go if they put it there. I felt like only the die-hards will make the trek to Eugene.
Also, San Diego would be a good pick although I’m not sure what type of stadium they have. That would be the best scene for track and field in the summer in my opinion, if you consider weather, city ammenitites, and accessibility. -
polevaultpower wrote:
wejo wrote:
If you're building the new Eugene stadium and it's going to be ready by 2020, you'd rather have the Trials in 2020 and the Worlds in 2021 than the USATF champs in 2021 and the Worlds in 2021. If Eugene isn't ready by 2020, then this will turn into a really bad decision because Mt. Sac is on schedule according to their people.
I think a lot of athletes would disagree with you on that.
Most athletes seemed to be pretty strongly in favor of the 2020 Trials at Mt SAC, mainly because they are tired of going to Eugene, but I think some also recognize that with the 2028 Olympics coming, it is good to try and build a fan base in the LA area.
Eugene's original plan would have had the stadium mostly finished by 2020. When they did not win the Trials, things were pushed back. So yes, they say they can have a functional stadium in time for 2020, but it will be LESS ready and less finished that it would have been had they won the original bid.
As far as 2021 USAs, I guarantee most athletes will want to be on the World Champs track, especially since it won't be totally done in 2020 even IF they are somehow awarded the Olympic Trials.
It is a big advantage as an athlete to get to compete on the World Champs track before worlds. That's why they held USA Indoors so close to Worlds when we hosted World Indoors... the track would not be ready a week earlier.
Even though most athletes are familiar with Eugene today, the flow of things will be totally different in 2021. And even if they host Trials in 2020, it will change between 2020 and 2021. You want to get that experience under your belt coming in to Worlds.
Olympic track in the US will sell out. No need to build a fan base in SoCal for the Olympics. -
Look More Closely wrote:
Wait! Am I reading this right? USATF does not pay for any of the athlete prize money or athlete support at a major event like the Olympic trials? The host pays it?
What the heck is USATF doing with all the money they are getting from Nike?
If people understood how bid processes worked then they might understand why some places do not bid.
Few sports say "let's have a championship in this town". Most of the time cities bid for these big events. There is a local organizing committee of some sort.
One of the pain in the butt parts about calling something the "Olympic Trials" is that using that name limits the sponsorship. Cannot have the Olympic trials sponsored by Pepsi. -
Amerikano wrote:
I’m for moving National meets out of Eugene more than in is too. I went to the last Olympic Trials, I had a great time, but the weather was miserable there. It rained most of the days. Also, Eugene has to be one of the harder towns to travel to and book a hotel at.
Mt Sac should have been the pick. It would have allowed the sport to grow a little more being somewhat close to LA. I think more youth and a more diverse crowd would go if they put it there. I felt like only the die-hards will make the trek to Eugene.
Also, San Diego would be a good pick although I’m not sure what type of stadium they have. That would be the best scene for track and field in the summer in my opinion, if you consider weather, city ammenitites, and accessibility.
Everyone needs to understand that there is a huge "other" consideration in all this...
Getting fans to show up. And stay.
Eugene is the only place that has provably shown on a regular basis that it can get fans to show up, and stay for both sprints and distance events.
Mt. Sac is notorious for the sprinters families and sprint fans leaving in droves after the sprints and the stands being empty for the distance events.
Mt. Sac is as hard to get to as Eugene. You fly into whereever you want and still have a 60 to 90 minute drive, and with a traffic mishap worse.
And Mt. Sac is in the middle of nowhere. Your amenities and restaurants are the mic of national chains you have anywhere. There is little to see or do there other than drive to the meet and leave.
Eugene has proven again and again they can get officials to show up, they can get fans and families to show up, and show strong attendance for most events. The OT's are a long-long meet with morning and afternoon-evening sessions. Challenging to have butts in the seats for some sessions. No one could do it better than Eugene.
Over the decades officials and fans have established little traditions, routines and habits. Favorite places to collect, eat and drink (beer, lol). Fit people can walk to downtown, or hop on a short buss ride. Eugene provides easy offsite parking and shuttles. Often housing is eased by affordable digs in the dorms, and dining cards. It's kind of cool to get a back to college experience with all the modern options of dining whereever you want on campus. The new alumni center offers easy meeting rooms for registering athletes and officials.
The new Hayward will have even more amenities.
Most convenient to me is Sacramento, and I love hot weather with no chance of rain... But it hurts my fan heart to see all the empty seats, or the slow distance times and tactical races.
Without Eugene, the sport would be in a death knell.
Although we do not know exactly what the New Hayward will be like, let's consider a few things.
1. It will be the most modern and classy track and field venue in the USA, no question.
2. Concessions and restrooms will be no problem trips from your seat to and back to your seat.
3. There will be a wide, modern venue 500m+ concourse for getting out, getting refreshed, getting back to your seat.
4. Presumably, if the open area in the nearly closed horseshoe configuration creates a wind problem - that could eventually be closed in.
We won't know if it is "perfect," until it's done and we've all been there.
I've heard from those in the know that it will be pretty fabulous and offering a seamless fan experience.
Articulating seats that don't have your knees jammed into the back of the person in front of you? Yes. No one's knees jammed into your back. Yes. Room to have your coat (or rain gear) someplace other than under your feet? Yes.
There's a ton I don't know.
I do know this... Do not vote against Phil Knight and Slusser to get it right in the end.
Could I dream up some possibly better ideas for PK's endless money? Sure.
How about the curved clear overhang be articulating so it can bend and cover better in the rain. Some high tech fiber optic sensitive glass material that allows a switch to be flipped to make the walls go opaque/non-opaque off and on with a flip, like the walls in the Jacqua? (Possibly impossible.)
Phil Knight isn't stupid. He's not perfect. However the guy is successful with high quality projects when it comes to getting venues built...I do not doubt he and Slusser will deliver...Wonderful and Amazing when all is said and done.
At this point I think when all is said and done there will be more reasons to be pleased than anything else.
