Do running surfaces really matter?

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  • Stopme99
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    2 years ago 02/20/2018 8:09am CST
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    I was talking to our sports doctor over the weekend and she was told me that running on asphalt or crushed limestone is actually the best running surface. She said that in most instances running on grass can lead to more stress fractures than on a hard smooth surface.

    She explained that almost all grass surfaces are uneven in some way and lead to over usage or compensation. This causes a lot more strain in the calf area and eventually leads to stress fractures.

    She also said you should train on the surface you will be racing on and in the spring running on the roads is encouraged.

    What are your thoughts?

    I will admit that my calves are always tighter after running miles on the grass.
  • WaterDrink
    2 years ago 02/20/2018 11:24am CST
    re: Stopme99
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    This is the one and only magical achilles cure:

    http://www.runningwritings.com/2013/11/achilles-tendonitis-in-runners.html

    Get at it.
  • itdepends
    2 years ago 02/20/2018 11:56am CST
    re: Stopme99
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    I have never in my life heard that running on grass leads to MORE stress fractures. That strikes me as just plain wrong. Also, your calf and feet muscles working harder? Um, that does not lead to stress fractures. That is generally the kind of development that helps prevent things like stress fractures.

    Now, as a sufferer of achilles issues for almost a year, I can say that lumpy grass was not my friend when I was injured. It was fine before I strained the achilles, and after I got over the issue.

    You definitely want to train on the surface you will race on, but it does not have to be exclusive. And in my experience, asphalt is probably only better than concrete. Well, maybe better than solid ice and lava and stuff like that. But it's not great. It is convenient.

    Limestone path, those rock. I wish I had one that went by my house, I'd probably run on it daily.
  • theJeff
    registered
    2 years ago 02/20/2018 12:43pm CST
    re: Stopme99
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    I am finding that running on a variety of surfaces is superior to any single surface.
  • what the science says.
    2 years ago 02/20/2018 1:02pm CST
    re: Stopme99
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    You adjust your leg stiffness across surfaces to keep impact force the same.

    What surfaces should I run on?
    ....Runners typically adjust leg stiffness so they experience the same impact forces on soft and hard surfaces (Dixon et al., 2000).

    http://barefootrunning.fas.harvard.edu/6FAQ.html#What surfaces should I run on?


    This Runner's Connect article is great too talking about leg stiffness and the implications to injuries. In particular:

    But if you have a history of plantar fasciitis or tibial stress fracture and are willing to go out on a limb, you might think about switching to a firmer shoe and sticking to the roads. Likewise, if you’ve had a lot of muscle and tendon injuries, you might think about hitting the trails.

    https://runnersconnect.net/running-surface/
  • Welllll....
    2 years ago 02/20/2018 1:06pm CST
    re: Stopme99
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    It depends on your injury or whatever kind of injury you may be prone to.

    I think we overthink the surface we run on though. Your body will likely adjust just fine to running on the roads.

    Ideally a flat (meaning even surface) dirt road is the best to train on.
  • returntoglory
    registered
    2 years ago 02/20/2018 1:20pm CST
    re: Welllll....
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    I enjoy running on a bike trail during the outdoor season. I go out for 2-4 miles then turn around and come back. There are several wooden bridges along the way with wildlife in the area. A deer ran along the trail ahead of me for about 100 meters looking back at me one morning before jumping into the woods. Another day I ran underneath a bald eagle who was perched on a tree limb only about 20 feet above me as I crossed a stream on a bridge.

    I haven't gotten bored with the bike trail. I only run on it, no roads. I pick it up only about 3 miles from my home.

    During the winter months, I have only been running on a treadmill at the Y.
  • ytrhyhfbgh
    2 years ago 02/20/2018 1:26pm CST
    re: Stopme99
    Forum Index
    Anything except concrete. Even asphalt is far more preferable.

    Unless its a golf course, I don't care for a lot of grass. Too uneven. I do run alongside paved paths though if the grass is good.

    Unpaved trails are the best.
  • The real surface
    2 years ago 02/20/2018 1:57pm CST
    re: ytrhyhfbgh
    Forum Index
    It all comes down to the shoes you wear. That's the actual surface you are essentially running on.

    You need to picture whatever surface you are on as coated with a layer of your shoe soles.

    So Hoka on top of concrete is just that.

    If someone laid a layer of Hoka on a garage floor and you ran across it barefoot, would it seem like concrete?
  • Hardloper
    registered
    2 years ago 02/20/2018 2:02pm CST
    re: ytrhyhfbgh
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    ytrhyhfbgh wrote:

    Anything except concrete. Even asphalt is far more preferable.


    Citation needed
  • True Answer
    2 years ago 02/20/2018 2:29pm CST
    re: Stopme99
    Forum Index
    Stopme99 wrote:

    I was talking to our sports doctor over the weekend and she was told me that running on asphalt or crushed limestone is actually the best running surface. She said that in most instances running on grass can lead to more stress fractures than on a hard smooth surface.

    She explained that almost all grass surfaces are uneven in some way and lead to over usage or compensation. This causes a lot more strain in the calf area and eventually leads to stress fractures.

    She also said you should train on the surface you will be racing on and in the spring running on the roads is encouraged.

    What are your thoughts?

    I will admit that my calves are always tighter after running miles on the grass.


    I find concrete is an awful surface for running. I love dirt roads.
  • Shoebacca
    registered
    2 years ago 02/20/2018 4:01pm CST
    re: Stopme99
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    I don't think it's fair to judge running surface alone when looking at impact and foot health. Realistically you are looking at the total package impacting your feet involving both the surface and your shoes. So for me I run in something like the Brooks T7 on grass and the Adidas Boston or Mizuno Wave Rider (Precision until they changed it) on the roads. Basically my foot feels about the same regardless of the surface I run on because I adjust the cushion/stack based on the hardness of the surface. Cushion on grass would be too soft for me and minimalism on road would be too hard for me. The result is that I find a happy medium on most of my runs regardless of surface alone.

    My calf tightness historically has almost entirely to do with low heel offsets, soft heel cushioning, or too much arch support. Basically, calf tightness has to do with stretching on your Achilles tendon and the surrounding muscles, which has more to do with demands you put on its elasticity. Overuse and impact are obviously complicating factors and will be greatly magnified if running a 20 miler or sprinting 100 meters all out on pavement, but otherwise when it comes to acute injuries from daily moderate use I think elasticity demands are at the root of the problem.

    Personally my calf injuries have always come from running on the roads. Often the main issue was wearing too low of an offset for what my calves can handle and I would have gotten away with it on plenty of grass running, but doing the same on road was not as forgiving. Running in Nike Free or ASICS Tarther on grass never really bothered me, but doing it on road quickly added up to problems. That variety of impact in grass makes it so the repetitive stresses differ slightly. On road your footstrike is unforgivingly the same with almost every single step and you lose that tiny bit of extra dampening the grass gives you as it compresses at impact.

    My stress fractures have been in metatarsals and they have had to do with the bending in the metatarsals being a repetitive stress or sudden stress. My likelihood of getting the injury had a lot to do with how a given shoe delivers at toe-off and in that case too soft meant my metatarsal bent a lot and too little meant I had to do a lot of work in the metatarsal, so really I do best with just moderate cushion there (not too much or too little). Stress fractures vary widely depending on where you get them and I can see it being an impact force thing if it's happening in your tibia.
  • ;gkldf
    2 years ago 02/20/2018 7:07pm CST
    re: Hardloper
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    Hardloper wrote:

    ytrhyhfbgh wrote:

    Anything except concrete. Even asphalt is far more preferable.


    Citation needed


    Go hit both with a hammer and report back. It will be even more telling in warmer weather.
  • notafatty
    registered
    2 years ago 02/20/2018 7:17pm CST
    re: ;gkldf
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    You do not generate enough force per square inch to compress asphalt or concrete. Your foot, especially when wearing cushioned running shoes is nothing like a steal hammer. It wouldn't matter if the concrete was a million times harder than asphalt. Once you are talking about two surfaces that you can't compress the variation in hardness is irrelevant.
  • notafatty
    registered
    2 years ago 02/20/2018 7:19pm CST
    re: ;gkldf
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    ;gkldf wrote:

    Go hit both with a hammer and report back. It will be even more telling in warmer weather.


    Here is a citation for you. http://www.slowtwitch.com/Training/Running/Concrete_or_Asphalt__4793.html
  • bone structure
    2 years ago 02/21/2018 5:27am CST
    re: notafatty
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    bone structure and ability to absorb calcium(nutrition). Why do you think so many high school girls get stress fractures?

    for hs kids, grass on easy then track for hard days, or grass for both

    for the working man
    trails on easy days, road on hard days is the marathoners success
  • concrete supporter
    2 years ago 02/21/2018 6:33am CST
    re: bone structure
    Forum Index
    bone structure wrote:

    bone structure and ability to absorb calcium(nutrition). Why do you think so many high school girls get stress fractures?

    for hs kids, grass on easy then track for hard days, or grass for both

    for the working man
    trails on easy days, road on hard days is the marathoners success


    This is how I got stress fractures in HS and college. Lay off the grass and keep it on the ‘crete for most easy and hard running. Minimal trail running for a bit of diversity. Track running, only if you’re racing on the track.
  • BeenThereDoneThat
    2 years ago 02/21/2018 9:47am CST
    re: concrete supporter
    Forum Index
    I was at a college back in the day and we normally ran 75-80miles a week evenly split between dirt roads, hiking trails (some in good shape, some in not so good shape), intervals on grass (during fall) and on track (during spring or just faster stuff), and asphalt/concrete around town. But we also did pool workouts a couple times a week to 'get off our feet' and do high quality aerobic recovery work without the pounding. Of course we also soaked in cold water streams 3-4x a week after hard sessions and long runs (gotta love the mountains for that). Based off that my two cents would be it's really in how you recover. Maybe harder surfaces can be utilized more, but just make sure you take extra steps to recover. Little extra stretching here, little more protein there, etc..

    I think variety is key. There were times when I trained exclusively on asphalt simply because I didn't have access to trails/grass, etc. Body adapted with proper shoes, but it also wore the shoes out faster. I was slightly injured more from training on harder surfaces, so my last couple of years I moved mainly to trails/grass for long runs and only used asphalt/roads for morning runs on 2-a-days or just when I couldn't make it to the local park. Stayed healthy and injury free for five/six months and noticed I recovered better. But, again, probably variety as much as anything helps.
  • Old pseudoscience
    2 years ago 02/21/2018 9:49am CST
    re: BeenThereDoneThat
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    Those cold streams limited your recovery and did nothing to prevent injury.
  • stick man
    2 years ago 02/21/2018 10:01am CST
    re: theJeff
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    theJeff wrote:

    I am finding that running on a variety of surfaces is superior to any single surface.


    Agreed. Same goes for varying pace, shoes, elevation, and distance. Variety is the spice of life!