How hard would an XC running race be on a XC skiing course?

Winter Oly Q wrote:

Why doesn’t world XC run on the XC skiing courses? Loops, stadiums, can even run under the lights.

Is it too hard?

Actually- back maybe 20ish years ago the NY State XC Championship was on the 5k course they used for the Biathlon in the 1980 Olympics.

It was fine.

Winter Oly Q wrote:

Why doesn’t world XC run on the XC skiing courses? Loops, stadiums, can even run under the lights.

Is it too hard?

It would be pretty tough those hills are a lot bigger than they look on tv. Another problem is most of the top courses are blacktopped.

this?

here's the times from states at sunken meadow for comparison

Way too hilly if you're talking about most legit Nordic courses. Some are fine, but the hard ones are so hard that you really wouldn't want to run on them.

Cross country ski courses are laid out for serious climbs and serious downhills.

Cross country running on these courses would be much more like mountain racing than what we all know as cross country running.

It's Egun wrote:

Cross country ski courses are laid out for serious climbs and serious downhills.

Cross country running on these courses would be much more like mountain racing than what we all know as cross country running.

I'm not sure what wimpy courses you guys run on. There is not a flat portion on many of our courses. In New England we have at least three courses that have many nasty climbs:

Thedford (VT)

Manchester (NH)

Wickham (CT)

There are many others, but these are championship sites

I think it would be a good idea. I was going to suggest it or something similar on the thread about the IAAF looking to make cross country running more interesting, but didn't bother to chime in.

In Alaska, the high school state meet cross country course is often or usually on cross country ski courses, though not necessarily the FIS homologated courses. AllieO ran 17:05 for 5K at the state meet on the Bartlett High ski trails, which is constantly up and down short steep hills, no flats except the start/finish. Though compared to the homologated ski trails elsewhere in town, there are no longer climbs and descents. The state meet, as well as college meet have been held at Kincaid Park too, where there are bigger hills and where NCAA and National championship cross country ski meets are often held. There's nothing flat there except the stadium area.

I often train on the ski trails in the summer, and that's partly why I'm a really good downhill runner. I'm used to letting it fly on the downhills.

Compared to flatter courses, cross country running on ski trails would be more interesting. You'd see more of a differentiation between runners (good uphill runners, good downhill runners), and introduce more strategy, with hills becoming obvious points to try to make breaks.

I grew up running xc in central Ontario, most of our hs races were on xc ski courses. More undulating hills than the park xc or golf course xc courses (they were either flat, or flat with one big hill).

In Alberta, it's not uncommon to run xc races on xc ski courses. Yes, they are hard by American, West Coast, and Eastern Canadian standards. If you grow up doing xc running on these courses, this is normal.

They do it at all the New England prep / ski focused schools like Holderness and Proctor. It is brutal. The times are 2-3 minutes slower than flatland courses.

Have you skied or run on the 10K course at Birch Hill? That's at the upper edge of homologation. People complained that Bend was too tough for XC (2013 downhill S turns were dangerous). Birch Hill is all up or down with some very steep climbs and descents. Not Rupp certified. But Joe Gray would do great there.

That said, a moderately hilly ski course could make for a challenging but fair XC race course.

zzzz wrote:

I think it would be a good idea. I was going to suggest it or something similar on the thread about the IAAF looking to make cross country running more interesting, but didn't bother to chime in.

(...)

I often train on the ski trails in the summer, and that's partly why I'm a really good downhill runner. I'm used to letting it fly on the downhills.

Compared to flatter courses, cross country running on ski trails would be more interesting. You'd see more of a differentiation between runners (good uphill runners, good downhill runners), and introduce more strategy, with hills becoming obvious points to try to make breaks.

i agree. i have had my most thrilling races on courses like this. i would not hesitate to say that those courses demand good allrounders or better to say complete runners. due to the soft ground (in most cases grass) the high impact downhill running is doable. but man, it is hard. i remember very well the xc championships in my state a few years ago. gold out of reach, silver and bronze left. all my hope was the last steep climb. on top of it i was silver but i had shot all my powder at this nasty uphill section. even 400-500m of downhill running can last forever if nothing is left. i finished fourth but it was a good race.

Bin Der Dundat wrote:

In Alberta, it's not uncommon to run xc races on xc ski courses. Yes, they are hard by American, West Coast, and Eastern Canadian standards. If you grow up doing xc running on these courses, this is normal.

In 2008 I ran at the CCAA Nationals in Camrose, Alberta. The course was a 2x loop that finished by going up (and down) a serious hill that a ski jumping apparatus was built on top of.

Coyote Montane wrote:

Have you skied or run on the 10K course at Birch Hill? That's at the upper edge of homologation. People complained that Bend was too tough for XC (2013 downhill S turns were dangerous). Birch Hill is all up or down with some very steep climbs and descents. Not Rupp certified. But Joe Gray would do great there.

That said, a moderately hilly ski course could make for a challenging but fair XC race course.

I can't say that I know the specific trails that well at Birch Hill, but I raced the Sonot Kkaazoot 50K ski race many times. The race goes up the Chena River from downtown, up the alpine ski hill to Birch Hill, and then it does a loop of all the Birch Hill trails before going back downtown. I was there one year when the river wasn't frozen well enough, and we had to do the whole race at Birch Hill. Thankfully they shortened it to 40K, I think. I remember bonking badly and eating Oreos to keep going. Normally, I bonk in all ski marathons (and running marathons), but I also had my best ski result there, a 5th overall, and 2:31 for the hilly 50K.

I have also done some skijoring races there. Otherwise, I mostly ski elsewhere when I'm in Fairbanks because I have dogs along, or run elsewhere around town.

It's Egun wrote:

Cross country ski courses are laid out for serious climbs and serious downhills.

Cross country running on these courses would be much more like mountain racing than what we all know as cross country running.

Oh god, you should come to Britain sometime!

That course in the Olympics looks like it'd be a great loop.

Would be a great idea. Unlike the dirt course in Tallahassee or the fake Detweiler course in Peoria.

Well small world and perhaps we have crossed paths as I've done the Sonot 8 or 9 times and as a masters and skied in the 2:30s a couple times (plus some sub 2:30s at TOA at 50+). They still have the 50K, but offer a shorter 40K, leaving out some of the more gnarly trails on the west side of Birch Hill.

The course I describe is South Tower, Black Funk, and White Bear 2X.

Bin Der Dundat wrote:

In Alberta, it's not uncommon to run xc races on xc ski courses. Yes, they are hard by American, West Coast, and Eastern Canadian standards. If you grow up doing xc running on these courses, this is normal.

I ran Alberta XC in high school and college, and this is spot on. Almost all my races were on skiing courses and they definitely were a lot harder than any other course I've seen out of province. But it never hurt anyone. The massive hills build lactate pretty bad, though. You gotta be a lot more mentally tough racing XC in Alberta.