Someone please break down cross country skiing, biathlon and nordic combined for running fans?

I'm not a big skier, I've only gone XC skiing once. Here's what I've come to understand, followed by some questions:

What I understand is that there are generally two types of XC skiing: classic, and skate. In classic skiing your skis move forward and backward in a straight line, but in skate there's more side to side. You use different bindings too. Skiathlon is just a race where they do legs of both classic and skate skiing.

Ok now my questions:

1. In classic, what is the benefit to staying in the little groves on the trail?

2. My understanding is that skate is faster when the trails are well-groomed, but it's not if there's lots of snow, is that right? Or is it just always faster with the new technology but people like to stick to tradition?

3. Like Wejo I'd like to understand how distances compare (is time a better metric?)

Thanks!

1. packed snow = faster

2. ever try rollerblading in the sand?

3. no idea

Those are my understandings/experiences anyway.

Educate yourself....took me 30 seconds to learn that skiathlon is a mix of classic and freestyle.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cross-country_skiing_(sport)

wejo wrote:

Anyway I just started this thread because I love the Olympics but I know very little about cross country skiing (or most of the winter events for that matter).

I thought we the variants of cross country skiing were classical XC Skiing, normal XC skiing, biathlon, and nordic combined (jumping and XC skiing combined).

But now I see something called skiathlon and am even more confused.

Someone please break it down for the running fan. Maybe it can't be made analogous because a sprint in XC skiing is 1.5 km.

In terms of popularity in Europe, which types of XC skiing are most popular? Where does the biathlon rank and what about nordic combined? Are any of them considered total fringe like race walking?

And people think we need to drop the 10,000m to add XC running.....

To bad they won’t add XC running to the Winter Olympics, I know the charter says snow and ice, but XC running is an all conditions event that is run in winter and does not preclude the occasional snow/ice on the course. Plus it’s largest participation individual sport not in the Olympics. The IAAF should put out the ultimatum add XC running to the winter games or Track runs its own professional show for the summer games instead.

That said I was always a better XC Skier than runner, and skiing is much easier on the body and more fun on the downhills.

None of them are even close to race walking.

Biathlon, nordic combined, and cross country skiing all all very similar and reward normally the best skiers.

Skate and classic even though they look different are actually very similar. Normally if a skier excels at 1 discipline they also excel at the other.

Skiers that can sprint is sort of like cycling... they are basically distance athletes with a decent kick. There some some specialists but often the best sprinters are also great distance racers.

Nordic Combined is where they ski jump in the morning and skate ski in the afternoon. Depending on how far you jump ..or don’t jump ...you start the skate ski race with a slight handicap of time. I’ll call this the steeple chase of skiing. You have to be wicked lean and have big balls to jump and then have 5- 10k fitness to race. The nordic combined skiers might be marginally slower skiers but not always. They all have to be wicked lean to jump far.

Skiatholon is a distance event where they ski classic style for the first 1/2 or the race and skate ski the 2nd half.

They swap skiis half way though the race. It’s slightly tactical but rewards very fit and strong skiers who are good at both techniques.

The snow is packed more in the tracks allowing a more firm surface to kick off of and generally better glide. Sometimes the tracks become glazed (icy) and one can get better grip out of the track, particularly when climbing. The tracks guide the skis so less energy is expended in keeping them on course than would be without set tracks.

The events actually are "classical" diagonal stride and "freestyle" which is typically skating but one can do whatever they think best. In "classical" events one can do a limited amount of skating (in turns for instance) but there are penalties beyond these limits. Skating is almost always faster on a groomed course. In deep snow skating is difficult because one has to lift the ski clear of the snow on the recovery part of the stride.

Time is probably a better metric because the speed, hence time to complete the event, is dependent upon the course and snow conditions. The 1500 meter sprint events, for instance might be as fast as 2:30 or as slow as 3:30, thus you can expect times comparable to running the race distance down to maybe 70% of the running time.

Nordic combined is roughly equivalent to having track athletes have a high jump competition and then run a 10k in which the athletes get a head start based on the point equivalent of their high jump (e.g. decathlon tables). First person across the line wins. e.g. if Barshim jumped 7'8" and Mo Farah jumped 5'6" then Barshim would start the 10k with a 10 minute advantage.

In terms of popularity, the biathlon is number one of the three in terms of television viewership and ticket sales for high level events, though all three garner reasonable ratings -- all three events are regularly televised on European TV. None are fringe sports. In fact, I understand that in Northern European countries that the biathlon is the most popular spectator sport after "football" (which is far and away most popular in every country).

Unfortunately, I think it is hard to make easy comparisons to track events because the importance of skiing technique under differing conditions and wax choice is so critical. Physically, "sprint" maybe compares to something in between the 800 and 1500 meters? A 15k event might compare best to 10,000 meters... But tactics are always complicated by terrain and conditions, more like in cross country running or in a bike race.

Cross Country Skiing (or Nordic Skiing) is a separate sport from Biathlon, and so is Combined even though a couple of them share governing bodies much like track vs roads vs cross country running sports. Athletes could compete in more than one but are rarely successful due to the high degree of specificity.

Skate technique race: skating, just as speed skaters, hockey players, etc. can push to the side alternatingly. This is a great advantage when the trail is evenly groomed, firm, and fast because the skate skier has the mechanical advantage of not having to accelerate and decelerate the foot to be at rest on the ground. Generally, faster the course, the more efficient skating becomes.

Classic technique race: skating is not allowed so one must rely on a method for the ski to grip the snow just as a shoe gives traction. Today's elite skiers are strong enough to double pole with their upper bodies over relatively challenging terrain and still win classic technique races, and it's all legal as long as they don't 'skate' with their legs. Though regulations limiting the pole height (longer helps double pole mechanical advantage in steep uphills) and making courses sufficiently hilly enough has stymied that trend.

Inside Cross Country skiing, there are these races:

Sprint: a qualification round for the top 30 that go into quarters, semis, and finals all within the same day. Relative to the traditional races, it is a sprint, though definitely not compared to track especially when it will take racing 4x ~3 minutes spread across 3-4 hrs in the same day to win a medal. In some ways, this day is more draining than the longer races.

Individual-start race (10k for women, 15k for men): These are time trials where there are no tactics at play. Simply a competition against the clock.

Skiathlon: Half classic technique race then a transition zone to skate technique. Racers switch equipment under the clock just like the triathlon.

Mass-Start Long Distance race: Women 30k and Men 50k. As similar to a cross-country running race as there is.

Team Relay: 4 legs, first two classic and last two skate technique. Women's legs are 5k, Men's are 10k

Spring Relay: 2 racers alternate legs 3x each for a total of 6 legs. Each leg is usually over the Sprint race course. This becomes the "Interval Workout" race as you can imagine. Pacing, tactics, and skillful passing play huge roles. As if that wasn't enough, there's a semifinal round, then the final round in the same day.

Biathlon is hugely popular in central Europe as it's actually very exciting for fans sitting in the stadium and see the shooting. Cross Country has a broader appeal around the world, however, and usually has the fastest skiers. In some countries like Norway, the culture actually sends the best young athletes towards cross country skiing like our culture sends ours to basketball, football, or baseball. If a kid in Norway has good endurance, the parents/teachers send them to the ski club rather than the running team. Combined is a bit on the fringe side, though simply because it has such a limited athlete pool. Only kids that got into ski jumping young and cross country racing, which is actually pretty rarely near each other. This is kind of like the Modern Pentathlon of the Winter Games as ski jumping and cross-country skiing are very different in their physiological demands.

I saw that outside magazine did a piece on this very topic!

https://www.outsideonline.com/2278416/heres-primer-all-those-nordic-sports

The greatest skier used to be Northug but not anymore. Dario Cologna is gonna win, unless Legkov gets back in.

Classic (= diagonal stride) - kick and glide, like walking running, but skiing is done in a track. Skis have a sticky wax or part of the base is rough so you don't slide backwards. Classic resembles running the most and it requires a lot of subtle technique (looks easy, but isn't) and aerobic endurance.

Freestyle (= skating) - you skate with your legs, power with upper body. Skis are waxed tip to tail with glide wax. Skating takes a lot of stamina, strength, and a good strength to weight ratio. Runners can be good skaters at the sub elite level, but anymore if you really want to be good (world cup level) you have to spend a lot of time in the weight room and you're not going to see guys running 27 minutes for 10K on the track on the same year that they're doing World Cup or Olympic level races.

Skiathlon (been around for about 20 years) - is a duathlon of sorts; the skiers start using the classic technique and skis half the distance that way, then they switch skis and poles and skate the rest of the way.

Pursuit (not in these Olympics) - it's a two day event and they'll do one technique the first day (classic or skate) and the other the next, with the start time based on how you placed. So the fastest skier on day 1 gets to go first and the others go X seconds behind. And he winner is whoever crosses the line. So it's sort of like a handicap race in reverse.

Biathlon - skiing and shooting (and there are some derivations on how many shots they get or whether they get a penalty loop for each miss or a time penalty). Technique is always skating.

Nordic combined - skiing and jumping. Men only, someday they'll allow women to compete. Start time based on distance jumped on the first day of competition. Also, skate only.

Biathlon is the most popular and is one of the most popular winter sports throughout Eurasia. A top biathlete can often be near the top at a national championship race in the open division (or win/place high at the major "loppets" (equivalent to major big city marathons). You have to be a great to very good skier and a great shot to win these races.

Of these Nordic combined might be the fringiest. To be a jumper you have to pretty light--140 or 150 lb is a big jumper and lean-tall. They are built like high jumpers or distance runners (maybe steeplechasers). They don't jump at the level of the open jumpers, and their skiing isn't nearly as good as the World Cup Nordic skiers. Probably at the level of the top women or a little better. Using steeple and high jumpers as an analogy, they might be 6'10" to 7' jumpers and 9:00 to 9:30 steeplers, maybe a couple in the +/-8:50 range. There are only a couple training centers in the US (Vermont and Steamboat Springs, CO, or Lake Placid) and it's not common for combined skiers to compete at the open level beyond Junior Natonals (equivalent to Footlocker or NXN).

Sprinting indeed is 1.5 km +/-. But they race 4X in one day, so it's about like doing 4X 1000 m or 800 m. They start with a qualifier in the morning. Individual start, 15 seconds apart. The top 30 qualify for the rounds. Like 2-4 hours later they have quarter finals. The top 12 advance to two semifinals. And the top 3 from the semis race in the final (which starts only 5 or 10 minutes after the semi). These races are part Nordic, part roller derby. There are always 2 hills, with one being pretty steep, and lots of turns and transitions. Tactics and drafting are paramount. The Americans have been good at sprinting, which is relatively new (mostly in the past 20 years).

XC skiing is the real deal.

Biathlon is just for worse skiers

Dont get me started on nordic combination.

Overall, skate skiing is about 10-15% faster than classic. And depending on conditions classic is similar to running (note that they ski on tougher courses than XC or roads, like 100' to 150' of vertical per mile on average); nevertheless a world cup 10K classic race might be 25 to 27 minutes if conditions are decent (slower if it's on new snow or if it's super sloggy/slush). Note that classic is actually faster when it's very very cold (like below -15 F) but they don't allow racing below -4F (-20 C).

They stay in the tracks (usually) because it's more efficient (usually) and faster (usually). The more people that ski on a set of tracks, the faster the tracks get, and balance wise it's also easier/more efficient to be in the track. So in a classic race where you have to keep the skis parallel (no pushing off to the side, i.e., skating) it's easier to stay in the tracks most of the way. They'll remove the grooved tracks on sharp turns and steep downhills because they are a hazard there. If the uphill is steep you "herring bone" which is kind of a duck walk up the hill, fit athletes actually kind of herring bone run/bound on those sections--very demanding!

Like cycling you do get a recovery on the downhill, but those are usually short. 70 to 80% of the time you are climbing or on flats. You are working harder and heart rate is higher than running (it seems you can hold a high heart rate longer than you can with running), but overall in a 30 minute ski race your average heart rate would be similar to 30 minute running race.

Some time comparison at common distance for world class skiers (note they'd go even faster on super-flat courses like some road races)

10K freestyle - 22-25 minutes for world class men on an official course; 24-27 for women

10K classic - 25-28 minutes men; 27s-31 minutes women

15K freestyle - 35-42 minutes men, 39-46 minutes women

15K - classic - 40-45 minutes men, 44 - 49 minutes women

50K freestyle - 1:50 - 2:10 min men

50K classic - 2:00 - 2:30 men (really depends on conditions)

30K freestyle - 1:22 - 1:30 women (women ski only up to 30K on Olympics or World Championships)

30K classic - 1:30 - 1:40 women

Which is all another reason the Winter Olympics blows.

And I say this as someone who XC skis, and has ski crap in the garage. Like running, you should be able to XC ski however you want, to go as quickly as possible. If they want to limit speed or skating, all they have to do is adjust grooming. I skate ski, but I can't do that when the snow is deep and I'm hoofing it uphill. Simple.

That would eliminate the relay crap and skiathlon.

Beyond that, you have to have nordic combined, because Northern Europe is nuts about this. And biathlon is just funky weird, and really no different than what idiots in the US would come up with if they had half a brain. (Drive the big ol' Ford through the field to that thar place, jump out, and shoot them barrels with yer gun, then drive back.)

Swimming has different events.

And by your admission that you have ski stuff in you garage--you obviously are just a hobby skier and probably don't even travel wax your skis. 1/10

I’ve done biathlon . Same as cross country skiing but you are carrying a 10 pound gun so benefit to being bigger . Hitting the targets is about 4% of the total time . Time taking to shot is another 2%. You need to be able to know how to ski within your self . Go all out from the start and you will be missing all your shots . What makes it entertaining is the hardest shooting position. ( off hand) ( standing ) is last and if you are out of gas you blow up your whole race .

I don't agree with XC running being part of the Olympics at all. I know that is contrary to how most feel here but yes the rules are snow and ice. I don't care if XC running is done in ALL conditions because none of the other events are.

this is the only thread I've read on LRC this year that didn't have some guy trying to convince me how good the Vaporfly 4% is.

can't be much of a shoe if you can't do a basic Nordic Biathlon in it.

cheers.