Jim Ryun...getting it off my chest

stfu noob.

He says that when he fell, it wasn't just the bad luck that any runner can suffer, it was God reaching out and teaching him - Jim - a special lesson.

I don't know why it bothers me. quote]

It bothers me that you would include this in your criticism of Ryun. I believe that God was trying to put things in perspective for me when I was in great shape and ot injured right before I began racing, and it seems logical to me that Jim Ryun could think the same thing about his experience (or any experience for that matter). It seems like that may have just been a shot at him bringing up God in an interview.

Way too thoughtful for the letsrun crowd. Mindless bashing will commence momentarily.

Now that's funny.

Stick wrote:

He tells us that he thinks he could have run his 3.51 race two seconds faster if only he'd been pushed (ie. the record would have stood until the 80s and Bayi and Walker would never have been world record holders!).

Well, either that or Walker and Bayi would have just pushed harder to break it.

Stick, I think your assessment of Jim Ryun and his Olympic disappointments are way off base. When I interviewed Jim for my documentary (I've got 2 hours of tape) the one thing that came across is that he's very proud of his silver medal. At the time it was on prominent display in his home outside Lawrence. While I sensed disappointment at his "failure" in Mexico City and his fall in Munich, I think he looks at what happened as a positive in his life. I know Bob Timmons his coach sees it that way and so does Rich Clarkson, the great photographer who chronicled Jim's career.

On a sidenote, Jim related an encounter with Ben Jipcho during his days on the pro track tour. Jipcho apologized to Jim for setting the fast pace that help Keino win the gold medal.

As for those tactics... if the Mexico City finals had been a slow pace... like what happened at the Tahoe Trials... Ryun would have pulverized Keino. Ryun ran a 51 final quarter at Lake Tahoe... nuff said.

Jayhawk,

Fair enough - if you know him better than me then I'll stand corrected. Still, though, there is a huge, huge difference between the tone that Ryun takes in his interviews and that taken by other runners who have been in comparable positions, especially when it comes to discussing their rivals. (There was an extensive set of long interviews done with all these guys in the lead-up to LA 84, and on the videos it's striking how petulant and self-involved Ryun seems, in contrast to the rest of them. The only nice thing he has to say about any of his rivals is - referring to the incident you mentioned - that it was good of Jipcho to eventually apologize for setting up Keino's win.)

Perhaps it's that American journalists only want to hear about how their hero was robbed and mistreated, or perhaps it's that he gets selectively quoted or taken out of context. If so, I'm sorry for suggesting otherwise. But there has to be *some* explanation, even if it's not the one I offered. The difference is definitely there.

old tymer: I believe the post was referring to a few events from the 1994 gala. First and foremeost was Bannister's answer to the question: "Which mile WR do you consider the greatest ever run?" Without hesitation, he answered, "Jim Ryun's 3:51.1 on a dirt track." Without taking liberties with direct quotes, Bannister went on to expound on the fact that dad ran on a chewed up track with no rabbits from the front and he (Bannister) felt Ryun could have run several seconds faster in a rabited race.

Now, for those of you who think dad is bitter over his career, he is not. It is inevitable that every time he is interviewed, the questions are asked, "How do you feel about not winning a gold medal in the 1500m? What about 1968 and 1972?" Suffie to say, these are fairly major events in his life. Is there dissapointment on dad's part that he did not win the gold? Yes. I have watched multiple Olympic 1500m finals with him and I have seen a twinge of regret on his face, esp during the 1992 final when it became a big kickers race and I knew he was thinking, "That would have been nice to have that in 1968." Who would not be dissapointed, esp. given his dominance at that time? As we all know, not every favorite wins the gold medal. Is he dissapointed by his silver medal? No-coming off a pulled hamstring and mono, racing an altitude runner at altitude and still running a 3:37 in the final-dad considers the 68 final one of his greatest "gut check" races of all time (someone correct me if I am wrong, but I still think, at that altitude, it is one of, if not,the fastest, 1500m ever run by a sea level runner). To hear him talk about his experiences, including 1972, is to hear a man at peace with himself. Did God use that experience in his life? Yes. Would he be the man he is today were it not for 1972? No. I am a firm believer that God works in ways we cannot understand (heck, even I from time to time think how nice it would be if dad had won the gold-there would be no doubt in anyones' mind at that point how great he was). I hope that sets the record straight for some of you.

well, we're unlikely to get any closer to the real opinion than what Drew Ryun posted. There is no doubt that the perception of Jim Ryun's feelings is also tinged by the way American sports journalists pose their questions too ...

Does it make you upset that ...

Are you disappointed by ...

Especially in the months following his second and third Olympic appearances he took a lot of difficult press.

As for how he sounds compared to other Americans, have you ever listened to interviews with Slaney?? Shorter?

Drew,

Thanks for the post.

FYI, your dad was my hero back when i began running as a 9th grader. I read his biography multiple times and had every race time and (published) detail of his life memorized. At that time i was 5'2", weighed about 105 lbs and ran a mile in a blistering 5:20. My hope was that someday i would be 6'2", weigh 165-ish like him and set world records. (Nailed the height and weight, BTW, but as for the records . . . .)

I don't collect autographs anymore, but i still have 5: your Dad's, Kip Keino's, Marty Liquori's, Frank Shorter's, and Jack Bachelor's. Later in life i got to meet your dad again, here in Cincinnati. We spoke for a while in the lobby of a hotel a few blocks from where i live. He was kind and pleasant, asked me a number of questions (not related to running), and gave me some helpful advice.

Listening to him speak, i never got the impression that he was bitter in the least or living in the past, and reading the article associated with the Capitol Run, i didn't get that impression either.

I've always thought that his '68 Mexico 1500 was an amazing and underappreciated run given what preceded it (mono and the injury), the expectations upon him, the altitude of 7000 ft, and the comp. And given the way he demolished everyone at the '72 U.S. Trials and the jaw-dropping workouts that preceded Munich, we all thought that this would be his moment in the sun. My take is that in the wake of such an extreme disappointment, he has rebounded in ways that most people never would.

It's sort of ironic that somehow I'm taken to be a Ryun skeptic. Nothing could be further from the truth. Seeing him run in 1968 (an indoor 3:57.5 mile) was a truly unforgettable experience. I think it's a crying shame that the US public insists on thinking of him as the guy who did NOT win the gold medal, instead of as the guy who completely re-wrote the record books and brought American middle-distance running to the very top of the heap. His 2nd place run in Mexico City was positively heroic, and it is a genuine shame that he had lousy luck in '72. He may well have been the greatest mile talent of all time. Who knows? He was well ahead of his time and is, for sure, way, way up there in my pantheon of athletic greats.

My original post was intended to counter the implication that he is bitter about his career. As I stated very clearly, my impression of the man is of someone who is genuinely at peace with himself and with the world.

Drew,

Concur. Many thanks for the post, and if I can say one thing in my defense, it's that I said right off the bat that I didn't think there was any reason Ryun should change his ways based on my opinion; he can and should think what he likes. And I still maintain that he does not, for whatever reason, come across in interviews as someone who has respect for his rivals and accepts that bad luck happens - that no one was out to get him.

Three things:

1) There is a tendency here in the US to think that being a great athlete MEANS winning Olympic gold. (I remember this ridiculous interview with Lance Armstrong in Sydney, where the journalist was basically trying to get him to say that he'd never be satisfied until he had that gold medal.) Journalists and editors hence feel the need to focus everything on Ryun's gold medal attempts.

2) People tend to forget that as great as Ryun was - and yes, he may well have been the greatest of them all at that time - he had some seriously talented runners to contend with. You don't need an excuse for getting beaten by Kip Keino, or having your record broken by Filbert Bayi. I'm NOT saying (or not anymore...) that Jim Ryun doesn't understand this, but - again - maybe those who interview him and edit the interviews don't.

3) Rightly or wrongly, there is a kind of religious sensibility - everything happens for a reason, so everything that happens to me is all about God singling me out for a task or lesson - that many of us find kind of self-aggrandizing. I'd rather just hear that he fell, it can happen to anyone, it's happened to many others, it sucks, it should have been different, but what can you do. But of course that's a whole different argument.

I think it is reasonable to allow Ryun to interpret the events of '72 as a lesson; and for a religious person there is nothing unusual about believing it to therefore be a lesson from God. That he still feels he was fowled and should have been sent to the next round (which does happen at many championships) is simply his interpretation of the facts; I believe his is correct on this point and there is no reason for him to say otherwise, saying so does not mean he is bitter.

But I think he used to be fairly bitter about the "team tactics" in '68. That comes through in the Olympiad series interview, which was many years ago. But I think people sometimes mis-interpret that race. First, people should have anticipated team tactics, there was nothing wrong with it. Jipcho went out fast and suckered some non-altitude folks into oxygen debt. But the interesting thing is, Ryun really did not fall for the tactic. He stayed back the first lap. The real mistake he made was in not staying on Keino's shoulder and moving when Keino moved (at about 600m). Ryun wasn't suckered by Jipcho, he just bet that Keino couldn't take it in from mid-race at altitude. And Keino ran a great race against expectations to win.

Interesting point about the 3:37 at the Mexico Olympics. I'm having a lazy, pre-afternnoon-nap moment and am too lazy to do a search on this, but i wonder if Ryun's 1968 race is still the fastest 1500 run by an American at altitude. Let's count 5,000 ft. + as the cut-off mark (even though Mexico City was 7,000). Who out there is young, hungry, and has a better work ethic than I? Let's hear it.

matchup wrote: I believe that God was trying to put things in perspective for me when I was in great shape and ot injured right before I began racing,

Then you are out of your mind. I mean seriously, what is the point of creating a belief for yourself like that out of thin air?

I'm not surprised at all by Ryun's comments. Change the races mentioned, the distances and the years, and some mishaps or "cheating", and he's Frank Shorter.

Quite common for top top notch people in any discipline to be incredulous about any failure they have. Some learn to act humble, but inside it's eating at them until they can taste the bile in their mouth.

Willy,

I think you've really nailed a part of it. The thing that drives these athletes to greatness is their belief that they are the best. Thus, when something impacts their ability to be their best, they have difficulty accepting it. To me, it's not a negative, it's the way they're wired. If they weren't that way, they wouldn't have achieved greatness. It eats at them because they can't get past the "If only..."

A couple of thoughts about this. I'm not that close to Jim but I have spent a lot of time speaking to him. He was probably the most egoless world class runner that I've ever met and or interviewed. I think that was part of his fragility because he probably didn't believe enough in himself. He had Bob Timmons constantly telling him if you do this, you'll achieve these results. The results came and so Jim had no reason to carry much doubt. My impression is that Jim simply accepted Timmie's guidance in an unquestioning way.

The problems started in 68 when Jim began to doubt Timmon's and his methods. Drew eluded to the injury and the mono which Timmons first interpreted as malingering. My personal experience with Coach Timmons is that he wasn't very accepting of injuries or illness. The whole mono thing during the Big 8 meet brought about a fracture in their relationship and if I may play amatuer psychologist, it put a real dent in Ryun's confidence. By doubting Timmons and his methods he certainly had to doubt himself. While he still ran some great races and Mexico City is certainly one of them he was never the same dominating runner.

The other thought deals with Jim and Kip Keino. I had the privledge of receiving a French documentary on their rivalry and it's pretty clear that Jim has a great deal of respect for Kip.

Stick wrote:

He complains about falling in 72, and says that he should have been given a free pass to the next round. (Has this ever happened at the Olympics? Ever?)

Grant Robison advanced LAST YEAR when he was tripped in the Olympics. So, yeah, it happens.