The '20 minute tempo run'

Sage, don't mean to be a stuck up science correcting response here, but your HR spikes immediately. Body detects the change in stimulus and adapts. That's why it's common to feel awful the first quarter or half mile of a tempo, and then you "settle in."

A question for all on tempo vs cruise intervals, since HR got brought up though. Say you're doing a straight 4 mile tempo. You get 4 miles of elevated HR. If you do 4 miles of cruise intervals with 1 min recovery, you get 4 miles + 3 more minutes of elevated HR. Boost that up to 6+ miles or down to K's and you steal a fair amount of time at higher HR. I have not worn a HR monitor myself, or looked up to see how quickly HR can drop in that 1 minute, but it seems like an easy way to steal more fitness (from a HR training standpoint) by taking the 1 min break during cruise intervals?

I personally prefer the straight shot for the mental toughness factor though. Opinions?

A couple of quick points:

Having your heart rate in the right range during a tempo effort is an indicator that you are running around the right pace, but it is not the goal of a tempo effort - accumulating and learning to clear the waste products associated with burning lactic acid as a fuel source, which happens at around that goal heart rate is. So while maintaining that heart rate for as long as possible is a worthwhile way of measuring what you are doing, it is not the goal.

And your heart rate actually drops down during the breaks in cruise intervals and then climbs back up during the first minute or so of the subsequent cruise interval, so you don't quite get the amount of added time at that goal heart rate that you are suggesting, although you do get almost that much time with the accumulation of waste products in your muscles, particularly if you are not moving much during those rest periods and thus not clearing the waste products that accumulated during the cruise interval.

But yes, your overall point is correct - cruise intervals can be used to increase the overall volume of work done at LT pace in any given session because the short breaks allow you to recover just enough to handle the additional volume. And yes, the 20 minute tempo runs also add a mental toughness factor to go along with the adaptation. That is why I try to use a combination of both straight tempo runs and cruise intervals over the course of a training cycle.

Sorry if those first couple of paragraphs come across as pedantic - that is not my intent, but I thought it would be worthwhile to explain my view of how it all works (which is based on my readings of Daniels and some others). If I am wrong about any of the above, it will also give a chance for a healthy and meaningful discussion.

ClonedDuck wrote:

I personally prefer the straight shot for the mental toughness factor though. Opinions?

Mental toughness don't mean jack. Everyone got it. Any fool can hurt.

Smoove wrote:

A couple of quick points:

Having your heart rate in the right range during a tempo effort is an indicator that you are running around the right pace, but it is not the goal of a tempo effort - accumulating and learning to clear the waste products associated with burning lactic acid as a fuel source, which happens at around that goal heart rate is. So while maintaining that heart rate for as long as possible is a worthwhile way of measuring what you are doing, it is not the goal.

If I am wrong about any of the above, it will also give a chance for a healthy and meaningful discussion.

Yup. Lay off the biochemistry smoove. What people call 'lactic acid' is hydrogen ions, and it's not a cause of fatigue but a product of anaerobic respiration. You will feel it at the end of a long run when you go uphill even though your lactate levels are low. You will feel it at the end of a long sprint when your lactate levels are high. So it don't got nuthin to do with lactate levels. It hurts because you are trying to recruit fast twitch fibers that don't have enough glycogen.

So the goal is or should be to run at a pace where you can use fast and slow twitch fibers together without depleting your fast twitch fibers. When it goes well, the fast twitch fibers keep refueling by the uptake of lactate re-converted to glycogen. Not a lot of people know that, but everyone should.

The real question is, how do we get into that zone of efficient running from the start to the finish of a tempo run.

I invite the good distance gurus of letsrun to disclose their advice on how we should achieve that?

Response appreciated!

I personally agree with you, that threshold workouts are about operating at a pace that the body is clearing waste product just faster than it accumulates.

I have never done HR training zones, but after reading how I think Canova has (?) and also seeing MTC athletes using HR monitors a lot in their posts, it intrigued me if cruise intervals may be "more" beneficial from purely an elevated HR training standpoint. The catch, as you mentioned, is how much does that HR actually drop. A very aerobically fit athlete doing tempo effort properly I would think it will drop a fair amount (i.e. ~90), but a more novice runner might benefit if they only drop to ~120-130? I'm not sure.

ClonedDuck wrote:

Response appreciated!

I personally agree with you, that threshold workouts are about operating at a pace that the body is clearing waste product just faster than it accumulates.

So you just changed your mind? It's not about mental toughness after all?

Correct, you're welcome, have a nice day.

Re-read my post, Pariah. You are either misreading or not understanding it, because I never said that lactic acid causes fatigue, and I in no way conflated lactic acid with hydrogen ions.

Again, more slowly and with more clarity, there are waste products associated with the use of lactic acid as an energy source, and the hydrogen ions are those waste products. Use of lactic acid as an energy source (anaerobic respiration) occurs at all times during exercise, but your body is able to clear the waste products (the hydrogen ions) as fast as they are produced up until a certain rate of anaerobic respiration, at which point they begin to appreciably accumulate (your lactate threshold). The accumulation of those hydrogen ions result in increased acidity in the muscle fibers, which is what signals your brain to tell your body to slow down. Runs at LT pace are, in the Daniels approach, intended to address that build up an clearance, not to recruit different types of muscle fibers.

pariah wrote:

Mental toughness don't mean jack. Everyone got it. Any fool can hurt.

Clearly, you have not coached many runners. Many young runners are extremely mentally weak and long tempo runs absolutely expose this. Tempo running is 100% mental. The fact is, anyone can run tempo pace. The mind is what holds them back and slows them down. This is why cruise intervals are an effective training tool. My approach is to increase the interval week by week to train the mind as well as the body.

Here is a sample summer training guide that builds the mind:

Week 1: 6x800 tempo

Week 2: 5x1000 tempo

Week 3: 4x1200 tempo

Week 4: 3x1600 tempo

Week 5: 2x 2400 tempo

Week 6: 1600, 3200 tempo

Week 7: 3 mile tempo

Something like that.

pariah wrote:

ClonedDuck wrote:

Response appreciated!

I personally agree with you, that threshold workouts are about operating at a pace that the body is clearing waste product just faster than it accumulates.

So you just changed your mind? It's not about mental toughness after all?

Correct, you're welcome, have a nice day.

To feed the troll- yes, it is also about toughness. But that is not a scientific based training principle as is being discussed here. It just part of a reason as to why to choose one workout over the other.

ClonedDuck wrote:

Sage, don't mean to be a stuck up science correcting response here, but your HR spikes immediately. Body detects the change in stimulus and adapts. That's why it's common to feel awful the first quarter or half mile of a tempo, and then you "settle in."

You might want to consider a more thorough warm up before starting the tempo (or any other workout) if your HR spikes immediately.

ClonedDuck wrote:

pariah wrote:

So you just changed your mind? It's not about mental toughness after all?

Correct, you're welcome, have a nice day.

To feed the troll- yes, it is also about toughness. But that is not a scientific based training principle as is being discussed here. It just part of a reason as to why to choose one workout over the other.

How is pointing out your ambiguity trolling? And how is hurting more a better workout? Why not just race with a too fast start if you think mental toughness is so worthwhile?

Deep sigh from an old coach wrote:

pariah wrote:

Mental toughness don't mean jack. Everyone got it. Any fool can hurt.

Clearly, you have not coached many runners. Many young runners are extremely mentally weak and long tempo runs absolutely expose this. Tempo running is 100% mental. The fact is, anyone can run tempo pace. The mind is what holds them back and slows them down. This is why cruise intervals are an effective training tool. My approach is to increase the interval week by week to train the mind as well as the body.

Here is a sample summer training guide that builds the mind:

Week 1: 6x800 tempo

Week 2: 5x1000 tempo

Week 3: 4x1200 tempo

Week 4: 3x1600 tempo

Week 5: 2x 2400 tempo

Week 6: 1600, 3200 tempo

Week 7: 3 mile tempo

Something like that.

If you are trying to build mental toughness, cruise intervals seem like just about the worst way to do it. I went through a few killer workouts in my track days, but I don't even know how/why cruise intervals would be brought into a workout that was intended to be more than mildly challenging.

you're joking, right? wrote:I went through a few killer workouts in my track days, but I don't even know how/why cruise intervals would be brought into a workout that was intended to be more than mildly challenging.

Because some kids can't run a 20 min tempo run. Re-read my progression: do you think the goal is to continue using cruise intervals? No. The goal is to work up to doing a 20 min tempo run.

Question: would you rather do 5x1k at tempo pace or a 20 minute not-really-tempo-run-that-doesn't-really-work-any-specific-system? You can do what you want, but I have had good results with starting kids out with cruise intervals and building from there.

Smoove, back at ya. re read my posts. What people call 'lactic acid' is hydrogen ions, a by-product of anaerobic respiration, not a fuel source. The fuel source is ATP and when it splits it realeases energy and H+, hydrogen ions, acidifying protons.

Lacate is the AEROBIC fuel source, not the anaerobic. When lactate is produced you get both aerobic and anaerobic fuel. It's more wonderful than you can imagine, just live it baby.

And saying that H+ causes fatigue, no it's a symptom not a cause. Your fast twitch fibers are rapidly glycogen depleted and this is one cause of temporary fatigue. But you are right about the message signalling, so we can end this post at least on a happy note.

Deep sigh from an old coach wrote:

you're joking, right? wrote:I went through a few killer workouts in my track days, but I don't even know how/why cruise intervals would be brought into a workout that was intended to be more than mildly challenging.

Because some kids can't run a 20 min tempo run. Re-read my progression: do you think the goal is to continue using cruise intervals? No. The goal is to work up to doing a 20 min tempo run.

Question: would you rather do 5x1k at tempo pace or a 20 minute not-really-tempo-run-that-doesn't-really-work-any-specific-system? You can do what you want, but I have had good results with starting kids out with cruise intervals and building from there.

You're moving the goalposts, here. Yeah, I absolutely think it's a good idea to use cruise intervals to build to tempo running. I just don't see how the whole progression has anything to do with building mental toughness.

Deep sigh from an old coach wrote:

pariah wrote:

Mental toughness don't mean jack. Everyone got it. Any fool can hurt.

Clearly, you have not coached many runners. Many young runners are extremely mentally weak and long tempo runs absolutely expose this. Tempo running is 100% mental. The fact is, anyone can run tempo pace. The mind is what holds them back and slows them down. This is why cruise intervals are an effective training tool. My approach is to increase the interval week by week to train the mind as well as the body.

Here is a sample summer training guide that builds the mind:

Week 1: 6x800 tempo

Week 2: 5x1000 tempo

Week 3: 4x1200 tempo

Week 4: 3x1600 tempo

Week 5: 2x 2400 tempo

Week 6: 1600, 3200 tempo

Week 7: 3 mile tempo

Something like that.

Well old coach, running is a skill. So I don't agree with the mind slowing them down, it takes time to learn any skill, you can't and shouldn't try to force it. So I sorta agree with your approach but not your mental toughness explanation. When it works it flows. Hurting is what happens at the end of a race, and anyone can hurt themselves, it's a natural survival thang.

you're joking, right? wrote:

Yeah, I absolutely think it's a good idea to use cruise intervals to build to tempo running. I just don't see how the whole progression has anything to do with building mental toughness.

I agree. This 'mental toughness' BS is a stupid cliche that people need to stop saying just cuz everyone else says it. It's ignorant and inane.

If you can produce the effects of running at lactate threshold by recruiting the biologically innate (and/or event-specific) proportions of FT/ST fibers (i.e. an 800m or 1500m runner training with a certain total volume of shorter, quicker than LT pace reps, with appropriate jog interval recoveries) in order to achieve the same overall sensation as running a straight traditional "LT tempo run", then one might gain an edge on competition.

I would love to hear insights on this topic, as a subtopic of the 20 min tempo run.

you're joking, right? wrote:

You're moving the goalposts, here. Yeah, I absolutely think it's a good idea to use cruise intervals to build to tempo running. I just don't see how the whole progression has anything to do with building mental toughness.

How am I moving the goalposts? If a kid can't maintain tempo pace for 20 minutes in practice, I assert that it is mainly due to his mind, not his body, hence the need to break the run up into smaller chunks so he can complete the same volume at the correct pace. Each week, we stretch him a bit by making him go a bit further for each chunk. 8 weeks later, his mind is ready to push his body for 20 minutes at the correct pace because we built up to that.